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EFF Supporting Home DVD Editing 508

cheesedog writes "The Electronic Frontier Foundation has filed a brief in federal court in support of companies that offer software to edit violence or sex from a user's DVD. The full story can be found in this article from the Salt Lake Tribune."
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EFF Supporting Home DVD Editing

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:16PM (#6246967)
    As long as I can still view all the sex and violence I want, then I'm fine with it. Personal censorship is a right.
    • by uncoveror ( 570620 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:30PM (#6247182) Homepage
      This should be protected by the first sale principle of the copyright law. I buy a video, I hire clean flicks to remove the stuff I don't want my kids to see. I keep the edited copy they make. The MPAA hates the first sale principle, but there would be no such things as public libraries, used book stores, or used CDs without it.
      • by siskbc ( 598067 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @05:13PM (#6247742) Homepage
        This should be protected by the first sale principle of the copyright law. I buy a video, I hire clean flicks to remove the stuff I don't want my kids to see. I keep the edited copy they make. The MPAA hates the first sale principle, but there would be no such things as public libraries, used book stores, or used CDs without it.

        Last I checked, the **AA and the book publishers' organizations hated public libraries, used book stores, and used CDs. They've argued that libraries should pay royalties, that selling used books and CDs should be illegal, etc. So don't be surprised at this stance.

      • What if Clean Flicks only sold me an "edit list", let's say on a Multi Media Card, and rented me a DVD player that also acceped this MMC edit list? Then the copyright issues would disappear.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:39PM (#6247306)
      As a Mormon, I'd have to agree. If I want to see a good movie, without the sex & language, why not?

      I'm still paying for it. I'm not selling the changes or forcing them upon anyone.

      I just get to watch my video (I payed for it), in my home, on my terms.

      You would think Hollywood would welcome the chance to relaim customers, but apparently all they're intent on is reducing society to the lowest common denomiator, with no exceptions.
  • by Agent Deepshit ( 677490 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:17PM (#6246979)
    They would have my support if they supported tools to add sex or violence though.
    • Can we mix and match? :-)
    • Same here. I dont know how to feel about this. I am strongly in favor of the director deciding what the viewers see. After all its their movie. Movies are a work of art, and only the director should have the final say of what goes in and what doesnt. (ofcourse, this doesnt apply to crappy movies that dont even need a decent director anyways)

      On the other hand, I dont see any reason to stop people from removing parts of a movie that they dont like. Self censorship is best.

      But I dont know how I would feel if
      • As long as for EVERY edited video there was one unedited i'm cool with it. What I mean is if someone buys a DVD and makes a "cleaned" version, I would have no problem with them "sharing" that version with anyone who legaly owned a copy of the original DVD. If people know what they are getting and get what they want (and the artists/backers get their money) why not? It just means 1 person edits and anyone who wants a cleaned copy doens't have to "make their own". I wouldn't want the edited movie, but if
      • by DickBreath ( 207180 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @05:11PM (#6247718) Homepage
        I am strongly in favor of the director deciding what the viewers see. After all its their movie. Movies are a work of art

        We need to make a law, or some new technology, to prevent people from fast forwarding through the parts they don't want to see.

        You should not get to skip advertisements in a tv program either, because after all, it is their show, and the show and ads together are a work of art that should be seen the way they want you to see it.

        JOIN TOGETHER TO BAN FAST-FORWARD CONTROLS!

        Now suppose I did the horrible thing of distributing an "edit list", let's say, a text file, that your DVD player, or TiVo, or Freevo or Movix could directly only play the parts that you wanted to see. No copyright material is being distributed. Just an edit list. The edit list allows some people to skip the sex and violence. Other people can skip directly to the sex and violence. Some people can watch only ads with no content. Others can watch content with no ads.

        But of course, you feel strongly that people should not be allowed to watch only the parts they want.

        What if I go to the art gallery and only look at the bottom halfs of paintings? Or what if I look at them all upside down? This is not what the artist intended. Should I have a right to do this?

        Should you have a right to have any say so whatsoever over what content I watch in my home? I want to skip directly to/over the sex/violence/commercials/etc. What is wrong with this?
        • What I meant (you would have understood if you read the whole thing) was that it is okay for people to see what they like. Fast forward all you want, Skip over the ads, etc. But why would you want to edit a DVD other than for re-distributing it? I would still be okay with people editing DVDs for removing material that they dont want to see each time they see the movie. But what I am _strongly_ against is when someone else watches the re-edited movie without having seen the original, and with no knowledge th
          • You seem to be missing the point completely. There are people in this world who do not EVER want to see the material that would be edited out of the films. To expect someone to view content that they would deem objectionable as a precondition to viewing the edited version is preposterous. What started this was an offer from a video store to cut and splice a purchased copy of Titanic for anyone that requested it to remove the one nude scene. What was discovered, and then challenged in court by our all-knowin
    • by User 956 ( 568564 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:31PM (#6247196) Homepage
      They would have my support if they supported tools to add sex or violence though.

      Or, given that the technology exists to cut out the sex and violence, why not make a drive that skips everything _except_ the sex and violence?

      It would certainly make Van Damme's movies watchable.
  • by ghotiboy ( 7771 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:18PM (#6246996) Homepage Journal
    Every time I read something about this STUPID argument, it makes me thing of the movie Clockwork Orange.

    YOU WILL WATCH IT! Here are the toothpicks.
  • by zptdooda ( 28851 ) <deanpjm@gm a i l . com> on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:18PM (#6246997) Journal
    , so what's the problem?

    "Consumers are being empowered to use technology to customize the way they view something in the privacy of their own home, and this makes Hollywood nervous," said Jason Schultz, the EFF attorney

    I don't see why empowering the customer in this way would be bad for Hollywood. The customer wins, but I don't see the flipside loss.

    Is it that Hollywood would want to sell their own software to do this? Is it lost opportunity cost?

    • Well, you need to allow third-party people to get at the DVD data to do this.

      The MPAA types might not object to this use, but the kind of openness necessary to allow it woul probably be exploitable for other purposes -- avoiding region-coding, outright ripping, etc.
    • The downside lies in the fact that in order to edit the DVD it must be converted into an editable format first (dcCSS anyone?). The Movie industry does not wish for anyone to 'break' their 'encryption' by descrambling DVD's no matter why they are doing it.
      • The downside lies in the fact that in order to edit the DVD it must be converted into an editable format first

        No, it doesn't. All that it requires is a conventional DVD player that can skip around the film according to rules listed in a file.

      • by Hellkitten ( 574820 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:35PM (#6247258)

        it must be converted into an editable format first

        That's wrong. What we're talking about here is a system that recognizes a DVD and looks at its (the systems not the dvds) data (probably downloads it from somewhere) and then automatically fastforwards past the bad parts. How does noting that minute 25-27 contains sex require access to the data on the dvd? All you need is a player and a notepad

    • by aborchers ( 471342 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:28PM (#6247143) Homepage Journal

      I don't see why empowering the customer in this way would be bad for Hollywood. The customer wins, but I don't see the flipside loss.


      The argument I've heard is that the film's directors disapprove of their work being "altered" so as to change the artistic vision. This was in connection not with software for consumers but in the context of companies that were reselling modified discs to consumers, but if all copyright conditions are fulfilled (paying for each copy of the disc up front) I don't see why the cases would be different.

      I for one don't recall hearing any directors or studios complaining about the damage to their artistic vision when their films get edited for TV audiences and they get a big royalty check...

      My guess is the real motive for opposing this technology is that the implicit copying involved would be a step onto a slippery slope that undermines their draconian stance on copy control.

      • I for one don't recall hearing any directors or studios complaining about the damage to their artistic vision when their films get edited for TV audiences and they get a big royalty check

        In this case they OK the changes or OK there being changes.

      • Woody Allen doesn't allow his movies to be edited for television. Spielberg has enough juice that he got Schindler's List and Saving Private Ryan on primetime network TV unedited, unbleeped, and in the case of Schindler's List commercial-free. There are probably a few others, but most directors don't have the power to make that particular demand, and those that do are mainstream enough not to want to. And studios don't have any artistic vision to be damaged in the first place.
    • by wfmcwalter ( 124904 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:37PM (#6247277) Homepage
      If customers assert their right to control something they (gasp) actually own, they might (gasp) get ideas above their station.

      Maybe they'll want to show their kids a version with sponsorship messages and product placements removed. It's not difficult to imagine a (PC based) player that takes a "blurtrack" file which matches a DVD, and superimposes a blur over parts of the screen that I don't want crammed down my throat.

      Maybe they'll want to watch the basketball but have the TV show a replay rather than listen to the network's shamless shill proclaim "I'm going to Disnaeland".

      Moreover, the EFF is defending the principle that the customer should control what they've already paid for. That the customer can watch a US region movie in Australia. That the customer who bought the home version of "I know what you did last Tuesday" can watch it on their laptop, on their cellphone, can listen to the soundtrack without the dialog, can skip over the ten minutes of trailers and ads that preceed it.

      Hollywood doesn't want the consumer having this control. It devalues their advertising and prevents them from reselling you the same material over again in each format you want to use.

    • by hndrcks ( 39873 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:38PM (#6247283) Homepage
      I can also edit out the coming attractions, Pepsi commercials, stupid music videos and other forms of 'coordinated marketing'...

      ...and therein lies the rub.

  • I thought the EFF had more important battles to win than this.

    • by Dark Paladin ( 116525 ) * <jhummel.johnhummel@net> on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:23PM (#6247066) Homepage
      To the contrary, this is very important.

      Personally, I have no problem checking out Kate Winslett naked in "Titantic" - it was probably the only good part of the movie for me.

      But if somebody else wants to buy the movie and edit it to remove those parts, that should be their right as owners of their own property.

      This case goes to the issue of what do you own. Do you own the DVD and the movie contents inside, to modify as you please? If that is the case, if you purchase a full version of the movie, the artist/producer/copyright holders all get their money, are you not allowed to then take it to some other third party to edit out scenes you don't like? Or if you are a third party dealer, can you buy the movie, edit it, and sell the edited versions with the same profit going back to the original copyright holders (for example, you include the original DVD, and for an extra $5 - $10 dollars you can get the PG version as a separate disk that says "Edited by John's Prude Company".

      What if you want to make dance remixes of a song? Can you buy the CD, take it into a professional DJ, and have him give you a CD with the music you bought with the various other remixed music inside?

      So while the issue is rather silly - (Oh, No! A Utah Mormon might see a breast or hear the F-Word! Runnnn!), the central idea of ownership is far from it.

      Of course, (as Dennis Miller was oft to say), I could be wrong.
    • More important than protecting the rights of people to do what they want with a product they bought?

      Seems to me this is just the latest example of a long line of abuses by the RIAA/MPAA that all boil down to the same thing: they want to sell you things and tell you how to use them.

      Its central to the EFF's goal, which is EF.
    • by Painaxl ( 673056 )
      Actually, I think it's really important. I mean, look at it this way:

      The EFF has a tough time defending stuff like deCSS because the first thought of many is pirating. However, software to edit out violence and sex would ALSO need to have this knowledge. I think they're using it to gain some leverage in the battle of "what are the positives of having the CSS out there."

      This also would help cement the idea of DVDs as belonging to the consumer. The consumer can do what they choose to they're own pro
  • Editing DVDs (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mhesseltine ( 541806 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:19PM (#6247006) Homepage Journal

    From the article:

    The Electronic Frontier Foundation has filed a brief in federal court in support of companies that offer software to
    edit violence or sex from a user's DVD. The full story can be found in this article from the Salt Lake Tribune.

    I have no problem with the violence or sex. What I want to edit out are the mandatory previews, FBI warnings, "The comments made are those of the individual and not the studio", kinds of things. Those bother me far more than the content of the video. Any word on if that's a possibility?

    • On previews:
      Being as those Hollywood types want you to believe that "not watching a commercial is stealing a tv program", I find hard to believe they'd let you get away with not watching the previews...after all, those previews paid for... wait no, it was my goddamn money!

      On the FBI warning:
      That screen is your contract not to pirate the movie or use it in non-personal ways. If you could skip that screen you could claim you never "signed" the contract and are not bound to it... that's why dvd players won't
    • Re:Editing DVDs (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      It's very easy to do actually:

      I use a program called IfoEdit which has great guides and tutorials at http://www.doom9.org. You can remove the P-UPS (Prohibited user operations) rather easily with this program.

      The guy has actually gone to work on DVDXCopy. I found the best so far is to make a one disc copy (even of dual layer dvds) with DVD2One which can reencode an entire dual layer dvd to one disc in half an hour.
  • by Carnivore ( 103106 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:19PM (#6247007)
    Because it lets people self-censor, rather than a giant company doing it for all of us. This lets people who don't mind (or even enjoy) violence and sex to see more of it, and those who do mind can watch the same stuff, sans sex and violence. Anything to increase the granularity of censorship is great in my book.
    • Perhapes people who wants to watch violence and sex free movies should stick to G-rated movies. Imagine watching movies like Matrix, Saving Private Ryan, We Were Soldiers, etc, with violence removed.
    • Agreed. Censorship (if you want to call it that) should be the responsibility of individuals. I.E. if we are concerned with what our children are being exposed to via movies, it's better that we "take matters into our own hands" in this way rather than abdicating responsibility and letting the state decide what is acceptable and what is not.

  • ..as to what my opinion is. SLASHDOT HELP ME! Am I supposed to be happy the EFF is supporting my rights of usage, or upset that is it's supporting a sort of censorship.
    • how is it censorship if *I* as a user edit outs parts that *I* don't want to see. In truth I think there is to much sex and violence on TV and the movies. If I read a book and there is a bit I don't want to read I can skip to the next section. editing what I want to see is not Censorship, its user choice.

      Its only censorship if someone else tells me I can't watch the sex scene. if i don't want to watch it that my afair.
      • Really, I agree. I was just pointing out the only agruement against it, and probably the only reason it got posted here. This is really a non-story as far as I am concerned. I guess the fact that the EFF is invovled is supposed to make it news for nerds.
    • It's not censorship when you do it to yourself.
  • by imAck ( 102644 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:20PM (#6247012) Homepage
    To me this is like muting the TV when the commercials come on. The notion that "editing" content being wrong or illegal? Come on. What are they going to do next, tell you you can't cover your eyes during a scary part of the movie?

  • Ratings (Score:2, Flamebait)

    by Ghetto_D ( 670850 )
    Ratings are put on a movie for a reason. Most of the time if a movie contains sex and violence, it either adds to the movie, or is the only redeeming value of the movie. Can you imagine a movie like Boogie Nights with the sex removed? How about The Matrix with no violence?
    • And who would buy/rent/watch either of those if they weren't expecting them in the first place?

      Yes, I watch Boogie Nights for the excellent acting and the Matrix for its philosophical insight. Riiight.
    • Re:Ratings (Score:2, Insightful)

      by ghotiboy ( 7771 )
      One thing I CAN imagine is The Matrix: Reloaded without that gratuitous sex/orgy scene in the middle. What was the point? What did it show that was important to the plot? Is Keanu's butt-crack really that important to his role as The One?
    • Re:Ratings (Score:3, Interesting)

      by DickBreath ( 207180 )
      You know, once upon a time, we used to be able to tell a story without unnecessary sex and violence.

      You'd be surprised how many movies have good stories that survive without the sex and violence.

      Some movies only need "stylized" violence rather than blood and gore. In fact, TV and older movies seemed to work quite well this way.

      Now granted, some movies need the sex and violence. Some movies are nothing but.

      In fact, I worry much more about the violence than the sex. I forget who once said: I ca
  • Editing... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Speare ( 84249 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:21PM (#6247030) Homepage Journal

    There's selling pre-edited movies. I'd say that should be protected under Doctrine of First Sale, as long as it's clearly labeled, but that argument doesn't appear to hold much water in cases so far.

    Then there's selling companion data which DVD players could use on-the-fly to edit out portions of movies. Since the companion data wouldn't even quote the original media, it's quite likely it would hold up to any sensible interpretation of the law.

    • Extra thought as I hit 'submit': the media companies would probably attack such companion data products with trademark issues. It's hard to sell a product which edits "Terminator 3" without somehow mentioning the owned trademark.

    • Re:Editing... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by dirk ( 87083 ) <dirk@one.net> on Thursday June 19, 2003 @05:17PM (#6247800) Homepage
      I have no problem with home-editting equipment that lets a person edit a movie that they have purchased in their own home (although I find the idea repulsive in general). But editting movies and reselling them is definitely a bad idea IMO. Yes, they can label the movie as being editted, but there isn't a way to know what was editted, so there they are basically selling a copy of the movie that is butchered, and no one knows what was butchered. If something in the movie doesn't make sense, is it because of the editting, or because of the movie? People then make assumptions about the movie and director/producer/actors/whoever based on a product they didn't create. It would be like taking LoTR and rewriting select parts of the book. I then sell that book (with a note saying parts were "editted") and people refuse to by any other Tolkien books because that one made no sense (because of my rewrites). I am changing the artists vision.
  • But where is the software to *add* sex and violence to my movies where I don't feel there's enough?
  • by dspyder ( 563303 )
    The EFF is fighting for a way for us not to be forcefed the crap that the movie studios are forcing on us. We win the rights to edit out the sex and violence, and we also win the right to actually control the media we purchase.

    I do wish the EFF had more (some) power sometimes though...

    --D
  • I wonder if something like Purist Edit [sharereactor.com] of TTT would eventually be made legal. After all, there can be no legal objective definition of "filth" - it's also in the eye of the beholder. And if the court would say "A" in this case, they have to say "B" next...
  • Once I buy the DVD (insert any other media here), it's mine. I can watch it any way I want, and as long as I don't re-distribute, I'm free to add or delete whatever I want (if I'm technologically competent enough to do it).

    Personally, I think films are meant to be watched in their intended format, but if someone wants to watch all 2 minutes of Faces of Death without violence, let 'em.
    • that's not true in all cases though. check the Windows EULA - you may think you bought your copy of Windows but all you did was buy the license to use it. the software still belongs to Bill.

      i'm reminded of the kid who asked Bill to sign his copy of MS Office or something and Bill refused saying it belonged to him (Bill) and this guy didn't have the right to deface it.

      i imagine this is the case with lots of other stuff too..
  • by headbulb ( 534102 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:23PM (#6247055)
    When dvd's where just out, I remember hearing That you could watch a the movie with a lower ratting. But now since they failed on their promise (or claim) third party company's are filling the niche. Then the Movie studio's get angry.. Wait didn't they say that dvd's could filter stuff for me.. And then never put that filtering feature in. Seems to me that some directors are just high and mighty and need some humbling.
    • I was just getting ready to post something about this. DVD's with their branching and different audio tracks were going to allow us to have the "made-for-tv" version and release version on the same disc.

      My daughter likes Ghostbusters - she likes Slimer. But I have to be fast on the remote otherwise after the ballroom scene, with the "we came, we saw, we kicked it's ass", my little tape recorder will be walking around saying that.

      The claim that a director wants his work represented properly is bull. Wit
  • by SuperDuG ( 134989 ) <be@@@eclec...tk> on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:24PM (#6247073) Homepage Journal
    This makes sense to me. This is not forced censorship in anyway. This is self censorship for those who wish to have it. While I would never use this product I can see where families wanting to not have to explain sex and violence because the kid is in shock, but rather when it seems the time is right. Let kids stay kids, and quit always thinking they need to be exposed to things to "learn". A good parent will teach a child a base for everything they need to learn. Be honest with your kids, but you be the parent, not the MPAA.
  • The only examples they give here are editing out violence or sex from a film. But this ability would allow for all kinds of neat tricks. A fan-produced edit like the Phantom Edit could be distributed as an edit list file, which would be very small.

    More elaborate functions like splicing multiple sources, and separation of video and audio tracks would allow some fantastic fan-created mutations of films, without any sort of copyright issues whatsoever, because absolutely no content from the movie is redistri

    • Taking it even further, the fans could also splice the 'deleted scenes' from the tail end of the DVD into the spaces that they belong in the film.

      Or even further, the films could be released with the intention that the viewer can pick and chose what views they want to see - so if the plot goes off in two directions, following different characters, you can watch one, or the other, or both, whatever

      Now, that kind of movie experience would be something i'd pay a lot for.
  • Keep in mind that... (Score:3, Informative)

    by malignatus ( 592780 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:25PM (#6247089)
    This isn't about sex and violence, but about the DVD owner's rights to fair use. As well as other things, fair use is supposed to guarentee us the right to edit and view DVD's we own however we want. As most of you are aware, the MPAA doesn't like this and is trying to prevent it. That is what the EFF is standing up against.
  • Double Edged (Score:2, Interesting)

    by orange_6 ( 320700 )
    This story, which I've heard of before (maybe on /.) and had mixed feeling about

    1) If consumers purchase the product, they should be able to do with it what they want. This would be akin to backing up a cd, but leaving out a song or two that suck.

    2) Since the artist/director released a version they see as fit. By altering it, you are taking part of the artistic integrity from the work. This would be like going to a museum and taking crayola's to a Rembrandt.

    • Re:Double Edged (Score:4, Insightful)

      by palutke ( 58340 ) * on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:30PM (#6247178)
      This would be like going to a museum and taking crayola's to a Rembrandt.

      No, it would be like taking crayolas to a reproduction of a Rembrandt. The original art isn't defiled in any way.
    • On your second point - I don't think it would be like going into a museum and taking crayola's to a Rembrandt. I think it would be more like buying a nice print of a Rembrandt, taking it home, and then taking crayola's to it. Ridiculous, pointless, and a waste, but I don't really see any reason that I would have to stop you. I don't understand your actions, but they don't hurt me, so oh well, destroy away.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    1)Joe Born Again watches a movie with the censor feature on.
    2)The movie loses some of its meaning.
    3)Joe tells everybody he knows that the movie sucks.
    4)Joe decides to not rent anything else by that director.

    If there are enough Joe Born Agains then this can become a problem. If the director on the other hand voluntarily edits the films, as they do already for television, then it has a better shot of not losing its quality.

    Now I am not saying that I agree but this is one of the arguments against the censor
  • My Rights! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by zoloto ( 586738 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:26PM (#6247120)
    "Consumers are being empowered to use technology to customize the way they view something in the privacy of their own home, and this makes Hollywood nervous," said Jason Schultz, the EFF attorney who filed the brief


    Perhaps this is because they'd rather force feed our brains with crap some of us don't like viewing with small children in the room, or even just because some of us (??) find it objectional

    Schultz argues that companies like ClearPlay and Trilogy do not infringe on movie copyright because those laws or restrictions only apply to public performances or involve "derivative works," in which the movies are drastically changed

    Drastically changed and sold in mass... THAT would be illegal. It's no different if I bought a DVD and wanted some of the violence or sex "skipped" by a third party. This is all Trilogy Studios in Sandy, ClearPlay in Salt Lake City and CleanFlicks of Salt Lake City are doing.

    I don't see much wrong, if anything at all if I wanted to skip or edit something I owned - so if I can buy this product from a third party where certian items are "skipped" then I'm more inclined to purchace there.

    • Re:My Rights! (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Shelrem ( 34273 )

      Schultz argues that companies like ClearPlay and Trilogy do not infringe on movie copyright because those laws or restrictions only apply to public performances or involve "derivative works," in which the movies are drastically changed

      Drastically changed and sold in mass... THAT would be illegal. It's no different if I bought a DVD and wanted some of the violence or sex "skipped" by a third party. This is all Trilogy Studios in Sandy, ClearPlay in Salt Lake City and CleanFlicks of Salt Lake City are doi

  • No Problem (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Zarxos ( 648322 )
    I don't mind if they have these tools available, as long as you can still buy the unedited version.
  • To edit violence or sex from a user's DVD Please collect all sex and violence that you editted out and mail it email it to me, chunkylover53@aol.com
  • Finally opposed (Score:2, Interesting)

    by onyxruby ( 118189 )
    I finally find myself opposed to something the EFF is doing and siding with the studios. It boils down to this, the editors are making software for the purpose of censoring, hiding, removing - whatever you want to call it, content. Since I stand firmly against censorship with very few exceptions, I find myself opposing this action by the EFF.

    People make something, it ought to be presented to the public the way it was envisioned, and not the way people would like to pretend it was. Imagine if classics from

    • Re:Finally opposed (Score:3, Insightful)

      by bathmatt ( 638217 )
      I finally find myself opposed to something the EFF is doing and siding with the studios. It boils down to this, the editors are making software for the purpose of censoring, hiding, removing - whatever you want to call it, content. Since I stand firmly against censorship with very few exceptions, I find myself opposing this action by the EFF.

      The big difference is that this is being done by the end user. If I am a parent who wants to block language from my kids but want them to watch an otherwise funny

    • Re:Finally opposed (Score:4, Insightful)

      by clonebarkins ( 470547 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:39PM (#6247304)
      People make something, it ought to be presented to the public the way it was envisioned

      No, you have it wrong. The EFF isn't standing for public censorship. Rather, they're saying individuals should be allowed to cut out things they don't want their children to see. I agree that if it was a broad-based public censorship, then it would be bad. But basically all their advocating here is a fair use right for individuals (or families) to do what they want with something they bought. That is totally something I can understand.

      For example, my mom still hasn't seen all of Saving Private Ryan because she couldn't get through the first five minutes, which is just the beginninng of a very realistic portrayal of the storming of Normandy beach. If I were to cut out some of the most disgusting scenes for her, then she would probably watch it and enjoy it. I don't see why this should be wrong.

      She also doesn't like swearing, and if a movie has a lot of F--- this and F--- that, she's very likely to be turned off by it even though she says she likes the plot. She should be allowed to do that if she wants.

      It's all about user's choice. The censorship is self-censorship, and therefore totally permissible (and supportable) IMHO.

    • Re:Finally opposed (Score:3, Insightful)

      by HiKarma ( 531392 ) *
      You don't really think the EFF is championing censorship, do you?

      The EFF promotes freedom to use technology. After filing a lawsuit to defend the right of a Replay TV owner to use a technology that does automatic fast forward over commercials, how could the EFF not defend a technology that does automatic fast forward over naked breasts? The copyright holder doesn't want you to FF over either of them of course, but should the law declare a difference here?

      Defending free technology means you sometimes hav
  • how to edit a DVD? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by maliabu ( 665176 )
    are they going to let parents sit in front of the machine for 2 or 3 times the movie length just to go over some scenes and debate which part their children shouldn't be watching?

    from the article it looks like the program will skip filth automatically, but what's automated and who sets the rules? parents or the programmer? do you have a drop down menu for 0/1/2 tits etc?
  • by BrookHarty ( 9119 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:29PM (#6247155) Journal
    While I do believe using someones else artwork, and changing it should be illegal, just as taking someones song and editing out parts you don't like and re-selling it.

    But I also believe the consumer should have the choice to skip over any part. If they want to pay someone to do that for them, then its ok. Just as you buy black lists for email or websites.

    Tough call, but I think I side with the Artists on this one if its a simple edit. If its a normal option to view both uncut/cut, then I would agree with the CleanFlicks.
  • by swb ( 14022 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:29PM (#6247159)
    ...are DVDs with built-in parental control via the disc's menus. In order to watch the unedited movie you have to enter a code from the DVD packaging, otherwise you get a sanitized version, free of any "offending content" via seamless branching.

    This will nip the "What about the CHILDREN!?!?!" and religious fundamentalist justifications for editing/manipulating content, since parents can just toss/hide the adults-only code for the DVD so that junior is stuck with the G version.

    It will also serve to get the right-wing Republicans backing their activist constitutents doing the editing to stop being interested in fair use issues and back with the rest of the Republicans in legislatively enshrining MPAA corporate objectives.

    They'll still offer the non-code-based DVDs to the rest of us, so that filmies and others won't whine to loudly about this inconvenience.

    "Everybody" wins -- Mormon kiddies don't see titties, filmies get "normal" DVDs, the MPAA gets Orrin Hatch off his back AND can get back to kicking home editors in the ass.
  • EFF Press Release (Score:5, Informative)

    by clonebarkins ( 470547 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:30PM (#6247179)

    I still don't understand why people don't put this kind of stuff in their story submissions. Here's the EFF's press release [eff.org].]

  • As the DVD plays in a home computer, the program skips violent or sexual scenes.

    so what about those who can't afford a computer/software? is this another plot for digital divide? people with computer are 'cleaner', those without are 'filthier'?
  • DVD controls (Score:2, Interesting)

    by bobthemuse ( 574400 )
    How is this different from some of the modified DVD players which allow you to skip/fast-forward through the annoying intros that take half an hour? If I paid for the DVD, I reserve the right to watch it in any order and at any speed I choose!
  • David Lynch (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ankit ( 70020 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:32PM (#6247212) Homepage Journal
    "I know that most DVDs have chapter stops. It is my opinion that a film is not like a book - it should not be broken up. It is a continuum and should be seen as such. Thank you for understanding" - David Lynch on why his DVDs have no chapter stops.

    I think I would agree with this philosophy. If you dont like parts of a movie, try to live with it.
  • by ihatesco ( 682485 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:33PM (#6247218)
    That the Hollywood Studios are represented by people that think that they should only protect Hollywood's interests. This translates in over-protection which unfortunately treads on the

    If I am a concerned parent who whishes his children to enjoy a good piece of art like a movie, but as a concerned parent don't want some "bad memes" (ideas, images and feelings) to taint my offspring so early, why shouldn't I be free to choose a software that helps me in my role as educator?

    The reason is this: Hollywood has already drawn their cards: they will want to sell me again special dvd players which will play specially crafted dvds which have the memes that the Hollywood makers allow me to screen off to my children (so that I can jump the gunfight, but not the scene were the female co-protagonist drinks soft drink "X").

    All this is a shame because:
    a) Hollywood will not satisfy all the public
    b) real competition in "volouteer censoring software/hardware" will not ensue, bringing along worse hardware or software with all the flaws (maybe not being children proof like the 99% of the technology today preposed to it...)
    c) again Hollywood stomps on the common sense.

    It was a bad day when technology compaines began investing in movie companies.

    Thanks to it more movies were produced, and more money was invested for a little time, but on the long run if one of the two sides has a crises, the other half can't say it's party time :(
  • by marbike ( 35297 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:38PM (#6247286)
    Utah, and Utah County (the location of Clean Flicks) have a majority LDS community. The LDS faith has been instructed by it's leadership to avoid seeing rated "R" films. This is a moral decision made by the LDS leadership as a guideline for it's followers.

    The down-side to this is that there are a number of good films that should not be viewed by LDS followers. "Schindler's List" is a great example of this. It was rated "R" for violence and mature themes. However, it is a powerfull film made to tell an important story. BYU, the LDS church owned university in Utah County, could not show this film to it's history students, due to it's graphical nature and it's violation of the honor code that the BYU students agree to. Given the import of that particular film, I would love to hear that an edited version could be made available for those who want to see it, without violating the guidelines their faith lays out for them. Given the particular moral outlook of the prominent faith in Utah, I think it is great that a good film can be made to conform to the expectations of the largest demographic in the community.

    I live in Utah, but am not a follower of the LDS faith. Many of my friends are, and they will either not go to any "R" rated movie, or they tend to get a guilty feeling if they do. A few have made the decision to judge which films they will see (i.e. avoid films with the "R" rating for sexual scenes or foul language, but not for violence). The ability to make a decision that will not violate their beliefes is a good one. I support Clean Flicks, even though I would not use their service.

    The MPAA and the film industry need to come to the realization that their current view on the "Ownership" of the film medium needs to be changed. Then Clean Flicks and other companies might not need to face stupid lawsuits or worse, legislation.
  • by listen ( 20464 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:46PM (#6247419)
    This technology is really just the tip of the iceberg.

    This is a limited form of annotation and augmentation. For my final year project at uni, I created a web annotation project using a modified KHTML, KIO, and Konqueror.

    The idea was that any entity could publish annotations of any uri addressable resource, and any portion of that resource via content specific identifiers - eg XPath for xml, substring matches for text, svg shapes for images, etc etc.

    These annotations, which could also carry an rdf payload, were signed, and a web of trust created. The annotations were shared via a p2p network modeled on fast track, implemented in python.

    Then whenever a location was visited, your client would perform a search for that uri, evaluate the trustworthyness of the annotations, and then display the ones it thought were useful. Moderation, in the slashdot sense was just a special form of annotation.

    These annotations would be passed to the active component, and then, if it knew how, rendered appropriately. It also allowed eg. collaborative porn/ad/change-your-useragent-to-msie-for-these-id iots filtering. Oh, and backlinks, using a partial XLink implementation.

    It was a fairly neat project, and I got good marks for it, but I've never got round to polishing it up and releasing it - not sure if the KHTML would like all my changes anyway!

    I had created a limited form of the Semantic Web, and when I do release it, I want to model the whole system just using rdf.

    The other area I wanted to expand it to was collaborative tv ad filtering. Labeling TV show broadcasts with a unique urn, eg
    urn:/BBC/Black Adder/03x04/Broadcast/UKGold/2003-04-14T2200 , and then use the same trust model to cut out ads, and add subtitles, commentarys, even hyperlinks and backlinks. Also geographic urns annotation presents some very exciting possibilty such as collaborative mapping and reviews, eg restaurants.

    Well , now thats off my chest I just need to win the lottery, pay off my student loans, quit this mind numbing banking job and implement it... ;-)
  • by Mantrid ( 250133 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:48PM (#6247439) Journal
    I don't see any justifiable arguement against people doing this. If I want to buy an expensive painting and draw on it or use it for TP, that's my business I own it. If I want to rip a DVD, edit out swearing, heck add my own scenes, in my home for my own use, then that's my *right* if I bought and paid for the DVD. I own it. I'm not one to go on about rights all the time, but this seems pretty damned cut and dry to me. Obviously distributing the modified DVD or copying is against the law and reasonable, other than that TS for the MPAA.

    And I would've thought for DVD that it would be a great move for movie companies to include an edited track and cut of the movie on a DVD anyways - they're going to have to do it for TV, so why not get that out of the way, plus increase the sales of the DVD?
  • by reddish ( 646830 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:52PM (#6247488) Homepage

    I wonder how the /. community would have reacted on a story saying "there's this company that wants to make software that can be used to censor DVD content".

    Or better yet- "M$ will put a feature in their next MediaPlayer release that will give the ability to auto-detect certain DVD titles and skip certain scenes".

    I just wonder how many of us would be on the side of Microsoft if it came to that...

    Just because the Good Guys are pursuing this one, I feel that many here are swayed in favor. I for one feel that censoring a (possibly artistic) work amounts to intellectual rape, in extreme cases, which for me outweighs the right of a buyer to mutilate his property.

    On the other hand I do applaud the EFF for taking this stand, regardless of the eyebrows it will raise.

  • Well Duh (Score:3, Insightful)

    by QuackQuack ( 550293 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @04:53PM (#6247492) Journal
    It's sad that the entertainment industry is so out of touch that they take a case like this to court, and the EFF has to waste resources submitting friend of the court documents because the legal system is so screwed up that some judge might actually agree with them.

    Of course consumers have the right to view DVDs and skip any part of it for any reason, too much sex, not enough sex, too boring, Jar Jar Binks, etc.

    Next they'll tell us we aren't allowed to skip commercials or go to the kitchen while they're on, oh wait, didn't they attack TIVO on those grounds?
  • So many hypocrites (Score:5, Insightful)

    by crotherm ( 160925 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @05:01PM (#6247584) Journal
    Is this the same crowd that believes that once they buy a music CD they can do whatever they want with it? Are these the same people who believe they should be able to tweak someone else's software so it fits theirs needs?

    I cannot understand why any of you give a rat's arse what someone else does with their purchased copy of a movie. This has nothing at all to do with offending the artists and everything to do with freedom. It is truely amazing seeing all the hypocrites whine.

  • by The Metahacker ( 3507 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @05:04PM (#6247629)
    just a reminder, the folks over at eff.org can always use your support [eff.org]. TMH
  • by NeB_Zero ( 645301 ) <nebzero AT gmail DOT com> on Thursday June 19, 2003 @05:06PM (#6247650) Journal
    I think I'll sue Slashdot for providing software to censor user's posts. This threshold is censorship!!!! I want everyone to see my lame postings.



    I have a patent on suing people for copyright infringement
  • by Gorimek ( 61128 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @05:13PM (#6247739) Homepage
    I really like how this is an EFF case where they are on the knee jerk conservative side of things. They're not supporting some drug crazed anarchists here, but ultra wholesome Mormons. That can only help.
  • Just don't waffle... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ajs ( 35943 ) <{ajs} {at} {ajs.com}> on Thursday June 19, 2003 @05:19PM (#6247818) Homepage Journal
    If you feel that this is a just and good thing, then please don't yell at studios and directors for cutting new versions of classic films.

    While it may be quite unreasonable (as Lucas has done, and as Turner did before him) to remove a film from distribution entirely after you have made a change, and only distributing the new version, I can't say that anyone has the right to tell such a studio or director to NOT be unreasonable. Certianly as fans, we can voice an opinion, but I've heard some people try to claim that there's some "right" that we have to old movies in the form in which they were released... that's just silly.

    I might mourn that I can't get the old version of a film, but I have no right to expect Hollywood to BE the collectables market or an archive for such....

    As for companies that do this sort of modification, I respect them. They provide a service that people want, and while I do not think that people should rely on such a service to shelter themselves or their children, I can see the point of letting your kids see The Matrix: Reloaded while not keeping the "She wasn't kissing your face, love" sceene.
  • by dnaSpyDir ( 167208 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @05:29PM (#6247918) Homepage Journal
    directors alter their "vision" ALL THE TIME! after all show me a director that's not going to chop up his "vision" to avoid an NC-17 or *gasp* an X rating. This is the whole reason for the "directors cut" in the first place (barring tech advances, right Mr. StarWars).

    i don't care for the self rightous fire and brimstone religious nut jobs any more than anyone else, but hey hollywood choke on my nob.

    oh, and utah, save the world, impload. (and that's for starters)

    have a nice day :-P
  • Wow (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dfay ( 75405 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @05:31PM (#6247946)
    Congratulations to the EFF and the majority of Slashdot viewers for sticking to your principles. It seems too often lately that I hear people argue a particular point with some moral justification, only to later hear them abandon the moral justification when it supports some other point that the arguer is against.

    To spell it out: the moral is that "You've bought it, you can do what you want with it." (Within reason, of course.)

    I personally may not edit movies, but I fully support the rights of others to do so, once they've bought it. Besides, we all know how some movies get a sex scene "tacked on" just to titillate the dating audience. In these cases, the people editing movies are probably improving the movie by doing so.

    Anyway, I am even more appreciative of the EFF (although not really surprised, they're good guys) and more impressed with Slashdotters in general (what is the world coming to? :).
  • by henele ( 574362 ) on Thursday June 19, 2003 @06:06PM (#6248246) Homepage
    One of my favourite quotes on the subject, taken from the CleanFlicks [cleanflicks.com] site, describing the classic film Aliens...

    "Personally supervised by director James Cameron, this special edition includes scenes eliminated prior to the film's 1986 release which broaden the narrative scope and enrich the emotional impact of the film."
    ...

    Which they then go on to remove :)

  • by gmhowell ( 26755 ) <gmhowell@gmail.com> on Thursday June 19, 2003 @06:34PM (#6248430) Homepage Journal
    Why are so many people defending the 'auteur' image of directors? It ignores the input of the scriptwriter, actors, editors, cinematographers, etc, etc, etc. Show me a mainstream movie where the director did all of that. Yes, the director has a very heavy hand, but he is not the end all, be all.

    Perhaps most of all, it ignores the audience. Trust me, as funny as 'Friday' was, nothing beat seeing it in a theatre where my brother and I were the only white guys in attendance. Would scary movies be as scary without a bunch of other people jumping at the scary bits?

    I remember when the format was first released. One of the things touted was the ability to show different versions on the same disc. All you were supposed to have to do was tell it to play 'clean', and the violent and sex bits would automatically be skipped.

    The question isn't why are the MPAA and the DGA fighting this. The question is: why are they leaving this market untapped? How far could Cameron get without $100 million + in studio backing? Screw him. And after Godfather III, I could care less what Coppola (or his daughter:) have to say on the subject.

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