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Recording Industry Hopes To Hinder CD Burning

timothy posted more than 10 years ago | from the technical-details-not dept.

Music 869

Decaffeinated Jedi writes "News.com reports that the recording industry is currently testing technology that would limit the number of times that a given CD (or copies of that CD) could be burned. The idea is to let consumers 'make a limited number of copies of their music -- enough for a car, a vacation home and a friend, for example -- without allowing for uncontrolled duplication.' Currently, Macrovision and SunnComm International are developing competing versions of such 'secure burning' technology, with BMG Music Group already testing the latter company's software."

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GNAA announces hostile takeover of Electronic Arts (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314495)

GNAA announces hostile takeover of Electronic Arts
Zeikfried - Reuters, Nigeria.
In a hushed press conference held at the GNAA compound in blackest Nigeria, the cream of the journalistic crop from IGN, Gamespot, Gamespy and various other overpriced ad-infested shitholes gathered from across 4 continents to witness what has been described as the most shocking announcement of the post-E3 market. The purchase of a controlling stock in industry leading publisher Electronic Arts by the increasingly aggressive venture capitalists of the GNAA.
After keeping the illiterate troglodytes waiting for several hours, leading GNAA members Timecop, Penisbird and goat-see, along with Electronic Arts president and CEO John Riccitiello, pulled up in the specially commissioned GNAA Limo, now fully armoured to protect from the ever present threat of terrorism from zionist #politics oppers. All four were, as usual, stark naked due to the searing Nigerian heat, and were instantly greeted by a cacophony of flashbulbs and excited chatter from the wretched sodomites and college dropouts that populate the world of gaming, including a shower from the furiously masturbating IGN editor Matt Cassamassina.
"This is a new day for Electronic Arts" exploded the now fully erect Riccitiello, "and a new day for the Gay Nigger Association of America. Now no longer will the significant Gay Nigger minority be ignored by the racist cartels and Japanese Xenophobes that hold a tight noose on the gaming industry."
Shortly afterwards, following a brutal anal violation by nordic Gay Nigger DiKKy, the now broken and bleeding John Riccitiello was replaced by the newly appointed head of the GNAAs gaming division, Zeikfried Tuvai.
"This change is no mere financial step, or a changing of the guard, this will be an absolute fucking revolution. Work on our titles has already begun, I shit you not."
Tragically the conference was then cut short by a failed assassination attempt on the GNAA leadership by efnet #politcs opper and known fascist paedophile "Pickle", who was quickly disarmed by GNAA security and silenced by a large black phallus. However a press release has been issued to Reuters and the Associated Press, and is as follows:

Shitflood Gaia (GC/PS2/Xbox) Q4 2004 - A management sim, where the otaku scum of internet have gathered into a single drinking hole for quick extermination. The player must control his assets wisely to gain the maximum number of bites from the unsuspecting and unintelligent regulars in order to max out his LastMeasure meter and gain access to his most potent weapon, floodphpbb.

Americas Army - Operation #politics (PC (Windows Only)) Q4 2004 - GNAA/EA and the armed forces of the United States of America unite to bring the reality of the T.W.A.T to your Windows box this Christmas. This third-person shooter throws you in charge of the GNAA efnet black ops, as you struggle against corrupt IRC operators, Mossad agents, Nick Berg's head and eventually FreeTrade himself in an explosive struggle in the name of freedom and democracy.

Penisbird's Cock Perch Panic (GBA) Q1 2005 - A coup by OSDN shock troops threatens to overthrow the President, defeat the unwashed scum by guiding Penisbird onto their prone member, disarming them once and for all. As you move through the levels you must dodge traps laid by the increasingly desperate CmdrTaco, including CowboyNeal himself. Can you avoid his sentient rolls of lard to perch on CowboyNeal's notoriously miniscule penis? Find out for yourself in 2005!

About EA:
Electronic Arts (EA) is the world's leading independent developer and publisher of interactive entertainment software for personal computers and advanced entertainment systems such as the PlayStation®2 Computer Entertainment System, the PlayStation®, Xbox(TM) video game console from Microsoft, the Nintendo GameCube(TM) and the Game Boy® Advance. Since its inception, EA has garnered more than 700 awards for outstanding software in the U.S. and Europe.
EA markets its products worldwide under four brand logos and has over 33 product franchises that have reached more than a million unit sales worldwide.
EA headquarters is located in Redwood City, California

About GNAA:
GNAA (GAY NIGGER ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA) is the first organization which
gathers GAY NIGGERS from all over America and abroad for one common goal - being GAY NIGGERS.

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Third, you need to join the official GNAA irc channel #GNAA on irc.gnaa.us, and apply for membership.
Talk to one of the ops or any of the other members in the channel to sign up today!

If you are having trouble locating #GNAA, the official GAY NIGGER ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA irc channel, you might be on a wrong irc network. The correct network is Niggernet, and you can connect to irc.gnaa.us as our official server. If you do not have an IRC client handy, you are free to use the GNAA Java IRC client by clicking here [nero-online.org] .


If you have mod points and would like to support GNAA, please moderate this post up.

.________________________________________________.
| ______________________________________._a,____ |
| _______a_._______a_______aj#0s_____aWY!400.___ |
| __ad#7!!*P____a.d#0a____#!-_#0i___.#!__W#0#___ |
| _j#'_.00#,___4#dP_"#,__j#,__0#Wi___*00P!_"#L,_ |
| _"#ga#9!01___"#01__40,_"4Lj#!_4#g_________"01_ |
| ________"#,___*@`__-N#____`___-!^_____________ |
| _________#1__________?________________________ |
| _________j1___________________________________ |
| ____a,___jk_GAY_NIGGER_ASSOCIATION_OF_AMERICA_ |
| ____!4yaa#l___________________________________ |
| ______-"!^____________________________________ | This logo is (C) 2003, 2004 GNAA [idge.net]
` _______________________________________________'

(C) GNAA 2004

They just don't get it.... (5, Insightful)

erick99 (743982) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314500)

From the article:

The release gained some prominence after a Princeton student demonstrated that the protections could be easily evaded simply by pushing a computer's Shift key while loading the CD.

The solution to piracy is never going to find success in copy protection. As in the example, above, there is always going to be a "workaround."

I think the RIAA has to make their case to their customers in a manner that is compelling and, yes, actually encourages voluntary compliance. You should be able to make copies of a CD that you bought. It is not right, however, to make 25 copies for friends. However, slippery a slope as it is, I think it is probably okay to make a copy for a friend or two. But, it's a slippery slope and many would take issue with me.

The solution is sociological, not hardware/software.

Happy Trails!

Erick

Re:They just don't get it.... (-1, Troll)

yatest5 (455123) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314610)

I'm afraid that people will always carry out 'unseen' crimes more readily than 'seen' ones - for this reason they cannot be trusted.

For example, consider the large amount of downloaders of child pornography as compared to actual child abusers - if people think they won't be caught they will try to break the law.

So copying CD's is basically like abusing people's kids by proxy.

Re:They just don't get it.... (4, Insightful)

KoriaDesevis (781774) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314642)

The solution to piracy is never going to find success in copy protection. As in the example, above, there is always going to be a "workaround."

There may be workarounds, but there will also be a fair number of people who will not want to put forth the effort to deal with such workarounds. It is a matter of convenience.

Now, where it gets interesting is whether the duplicates will also have copy limits. If you dupe an original and the copy scheme does not transfer to the duplicate, then what has the scheme accomplished. Nothing.

As for me, I like to dupe my CDs mainly so I can use them in the car without jeopardizing the originals. A copy limit would not hinder me in that regard.

Re:Convenience factor negation... (5, Insightful)

calebb (685461) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314724)

>> There may be workarounds, but there will also be a fair number of people who will not want to put forth the effort to deal with such workarounds. It is a matter of convenience.

It only takes one person to create a DRM-less digital copy & post it on the latest P2P network... convenience factor negated.

I really wish they did. (5, Insightful)

numbski (515011) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314652)

There's a poster below here that makes the comment that "if it ain't on the net, I ain't interested".

Voluntary compliance is the key. Make it so that we want to comply, and stop fighting the consumer drive.

It's been a while since I took Econ, but I will always remember the invisible hand theory. The market will ALWAYS force itself toward equilibrium.

Laws, unions, anything that unnaturally hinders the market breaks equilibrium. Forcing high prices on cds. Suing your customers into submission.

Why not let the market do what it does best, and go to that point of equilibrium where profit is maximized naturally? They're holding onto a cartel-type model and it's just not going to work.

Invisible hand link. (2, Informative)

numbski (515011) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314674)

http://www.economist.com/research/Economics/alphab etic.cfm?LETTER=I

Adam Smith. I nearly forgot his ever-so-generic name. :)

Excellent scholar.

Re:They just don't get it.... (5, Insightful)

The_Mystic_For_Real (766020) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314665)

Even with the best sociological solution there will be some who will do as they please without any regard. With any hardware solution, there will be many who will circumvent it. The goal is to eliminate the largest percentage of the population possible. Hardware/software solutions do this better than anything. What should the RIAA care if a small group at MIT can circumvent any copy protection? If they distribute it on a large scale, the RIAA can track them down with a group of lawyers. If they distribute it on a small scale, then the RIAA loses 100 sales, a drop in the ocean. Hardware/software solutions keep their property safe in the hands of the masses, at least until the general public becomes more tech savy.

Re:They just don't get it.... (1)

D-Cypell (446534) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314743)

What should the RIAA care if a small group at MIT can circumvent any copy protection?

Or anyone smart enough to realize that you can get a reasonable copy by holding a half decent sound recorder to the speakers?

Hell, plug a couple of headphones into your computer mic socket and place them next to the speakers and you will get some kind of copy. From there its just about improving the quaility.

Bottom line... can hear... can record!

Re:They just don't get it.... (4, Interesting)

swordboy (472941) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314697)

The solution to piracy is never going to find success in copy protection.

It already has.

Right now, it is easy to pirate a CD because there were no anti-piracy measures implemented when the format was developed. The installed base has become too large to ignore so CDs are still distributed today. But then Apple came through with iTunes and all-of-a-sudden, we've got a new format that is gaining ground while the old stand-by is losing ground. When the old format has lost enough ground, the industry will drop it as a supported format and we'll be stuck with the new.

Everyone on /. can see this coming but the general public could give a rat's ass, for the most part. They can still play their unprotected MP3s with their iPod so they could care less. However, they when they won't be able to create unprotected MP3s from unprotected CDs, they will finally see what's going on. But it will be too late. Of course, it will still be possible to make unprotected recordings using the "analog hole" that we all know and love.

Other than my DVD player and my PC, I no longer own any native CD player device. It isn't necessary anymore. This is what the industry has been waiting for.

Cool, corporations control our freedoms now. (5, Interesting)

garcia (6573) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314501)

Record labels in the United States have been sensitive to these consumer concerns, worrying particularly about earlier versions of copy-protection technology that had difficulty playing in nontraditional CD players such as game consoles or car stereos. They've released many protected CDs overseas, but only a small number in the United States and United Kingdom, where perceived opposition has been the highest.

Oh please, they are unconcerned with how we feel. They are only concerned with how much money they will make. I don't see how not releasing a copy-protected CD because people will balk is being concerned w/our feelings.

I wasn't aware that free-use included allowing a limit to be placed on something you have purchased. Making a few copies for home use sounds good but it's all bullshit. They are trying to limit one of the few "freedoms" we still have.

"I think the labels have been relaxing a little in terms of usage rules," said Liz Brooks, vice president of business development at Buy.com's music division.

I realize that this quote comes from a VP at Buy.com but I wasn't aware that the labels got to decide what rules we had to follow regarding fair use. Wow.

Just remember all this when you are supporting the cartels. Your money goes to developing methods and laws to limit your freedoms and to supporting suits against your fellow man.

Re:Cool, corporations control our freedoms now. (5, Insightful)

MachineShedFred (621896) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314647)

Oh please, they are unconcerned with how we feel. They are only concerned with how much money they will make

Correct. Just like any other corporation, they are concerned with the Profit and Loss statement as priority #1. If they aren't, they need to be fired. The reason why they don't care how anyone feels is because those same people that hate them continue to purchase the product; so obviously public opinion doesn't make a gnat's ass of a difference. (in their minds)

Right about now, everyone hates the oil companies, but do you think they are going to trip over themselves to lower gas prices so everyone will like them again?

These simple realities are lost on Slashdot.

By the way, it's "fair use" not "free use." The copyright holder still owns the work, not the public. There is a subtle difference, but an important one.

Re:Cool, corporations control our freedoms now. (2, Insightful)

The-Bus (138060) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314698)

Oh please, they are unconcerned with how we feel. They are only concerned with how much money they will make. I don't see how not releasing a copy-protected CD because people will balk is being concerned w/our feelings.


Good feelings = good customers = many purchases.
Bad feelings = bad customers = no purchases.

Re:Cool, corporations control our freedoms now. (1)

Biotech9 (704202) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314746)

Just remember all this when you are supporting the cartels. Your money goes to developing methods and laws to limit your freedoms and to supporting suits against your fellow man.

My personal solution to this is simple. Copy Right protected CDs are never purchased by me. In fact, I never buy CDs.

iTune type systems aren't attractive to me because they have DRM and no physical copy I can keep. The price is right though, and i hope they catch on in order to provide a direct selling venue for artists.

CDs will probably end up as copy protected SACDs or A-DVDs, so they aren't viable to me either. I have CDs that i bought in the early 90's that are absolutely unreadable today, which makes me worry about cartless high density formats like SACD. Personally i think they are designed to scratch to fuel replacement buying. (or at least make 2nd hand purchase harder).

Vinyl is the choice for me, I buy it, i get to listen to it at excellent quality when i want, I download the DRM free MP3s for portable listening, and they last longer than CDs. And of course the covers make excellent wall coverings.
Just my POV!

Who gives a fuck about CD's? (1, Informative)

torpor (458) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314503)

I mean really. I haven't used a CD in 2 years.

If it ain't on the 'net, it ain't something I'm interested in ...

Re:Who gives a fuck about CD's? (1, Insightful)

nacturation (646836) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314567)

I mean really. I haven't used a CD in 2 years.

If it ain't on the 'net, it ain't something I'm interested in ...


Well good for you. Obviously it is of some interest to you as you felt compelled to post your aversion to the CD format rather than just moving on to the next story as one would expect from someone who doesn't give a fuck about CDs.

Re:Who gives a fuck about CD's? (1)

torpor (458) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314653)

The point is, "nacturation", that CD's are dead. This is a big straw man.

True Media Corporations Aren't!

Re:Who gives a fuck about CD's? (1)

mirko (198274) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314646)

If it ain't on the 'net, it ain't something I'm interested in ...

Exactly the opposite of my case :
I want the electronic versions of my old vinyl records, some interesting stuff that never got mainstream because it wasn't the artist purpose.

I don't listen to music because it is or not on the Net, I listen to it because I love it, some time because I ended used to listening to it...

This would be very easy to defeat (5, Insightful)

CreamOfWheat (593775) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314505)

This technology sounds like it will be easy to defeat. You might just have to rip your CDs to Wav and burn a CD from the Wav files instead of a direct copy. They're rather limited in what they can do and have compatiability with CD players. This would work for most cd's

Very hot girl--NOT Goatse-Check it out! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314555)

Hot Girl [rolltidebama.com]

Re:This would be very easy to defeat (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314628)

I'm not really interested in defeating this, I'm more interested in how this technology will work.

If what is stored on a CD is just a binary bits of 1s and 0s, then how can it limit the number of times that a CD can be burned (or its copies)? The fact that a ``limited'' number of copies can be burned seems to suggest that the CD format has to be your standard CD, surely, and how do they plan to get around burning restrictions? Or do they plan to use the same dodgy autorun hack?

I am genuinely interested. If someone could shed a light on this that would be great.

Re:This would be very easy to defeat (1)

somethinghollow (530478) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314676)

My thoughts exactly. In order to keep people from copying CDs, they will have to prohibit the CDs from playing music.

I assume what the RIAA wants to do is facilitate an easy and limiting way to duplicate CDs for the average user. They can "defeat" the average pirate. They cannot, and will not, defeat the geek pirate unless they make their product unusable to everyone (and who wants a CD that doesn't do anything? We could make those for free before buffer under run protection was available on CD-R drives).

Further erosion of the value propostion won't help (5, Insightful)

SYFer (617415) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314515)

Personally, I don't think further hobbling of the traditional product will improve their sales. The recording industry needs to wake up and make fundamental changes to their model that:

1. Embraces and promotes the downloading channel (a la iTunes, et al).

2. Finds more ways to diversify and vary the traditional physical product (CDs). Packaging, boxed sets, picture disks, collectables, etc. The music itself has to be just one component of a well-integrated marketing. Every 10th CD will include a certificate for a second free CD!

3. Uses their distribution and marketing clout to create and promote stars--revenues then come from a variety of marketing and event activities (the Grateful Dead made most of their money from touring and even allowed "bootlegging'). The product has to evolve from being bits to being the magic of the music experience (or whatever).

The cat is out of the bag and there's no putting it back in. For better or worse, the ripping and online swapping thing will simply never be defeated. Its kind of like the "bazaar" model of development that ESR speaks of and no matter what the industry does, the "community" will find a way to crack it.

They can either die a slow painful death or evolve. In the new age, the viable product is the "rock star" (or interesting composer or beautiful diva), not the bits they spew. It'll take some work.

Re:Further erosion of the value propostion won't h (1)

calebb (685461) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314639)

>> 1. Embraces and promotes the downloading channel (a la iTunes, et al).

I believe they already are! Remember the price hikes [cdfreaks.com] the RIAA wanted to impose? (I believe their goal was $2.99 per single (popular singles). If that's not 'embracing' the downloading channel, I don't know what is. (granted, this certainly wouldn't promote the downloading channel when the price per song is significantly higher than purchasing a CD...)

Re:Further erosion of the value propostion won't h (4, Insightful)

RickHunter (103108) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314672)

I can name four fundamental changes to their model which will stop most piracy overnight.

  1. Drop the price of a CD to $10 US or even close to $5 US.
  2. Give a greater percentage of the money to the artist, and take the costs for the things the label supposedly provides (marketing, production, distribution) out of the label's share instead of the artist's.
  3. Stop treating your customers like criminals. If you treat them like they're criminals, they're going to disregard the law. If you're tolerant of them making as many copies as they want to, of them ripping and sending favorite songs to friends, etc. they'll be more inclined to obey just laws. And you'll make more money.
  4. Destroy ClearChannel. Utterly. Simply refuse to deal with them. Replace them with small local stations that are in tune with their audience. This will allow people to discover music that they like.

Of course, none of the above will ever happen. It stopped being about the money a long time ago. Now its about control - control over culture. Any of the above changes would reduce their control, and effectively eliminate their ability to dictate who becomes a "phenomenon" and who is relegated to back-shelf status.

Analog Hole, but nice try (4, Funny)

Gothmolly (148874) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314519)

If I can hear it, I can rip it.

Re:Analog Hole, but nice try (5, Funny)

ThomaMelas (631856) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314655)

They have plans to defeat that now. The goal is to produce music that the masses will listen to, but that makes geeks and audiophiles sick. Those with the skills to use the Analog hole will become violently ill when listening to RIAA produced music. ;)

Re:Analog Hole, but nice try (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314731)

psssst... hey... you.... wanna mp3/rip of pootie's latest song?!

ya .... ya..... man... this is gooooooood stuff.

Great. (2, Funny)

dubdays (410710) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314521)

Now I'll probably have to buy my CD burning software from the RIAA too. Wonderful.

Re:Great. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314690)

Now I'll probably have to buy my CD burning software from the RIAA too.


You're suppossed to buy software? What a strange concept. The next thing you'll tell me is that you're suppossed to buy music too.

Re:Great. (2, Funny)

ThogScully (589935) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314706)

What? Did they buy cdrecord?
-N

Re:Great. (1)

CFBMoo1 (157453) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314749)

It's amazing what you can do with a hammer and chissle. I just hope my drive can handle this 100lb stone tablet when I go to play my copy. Although for some reason I'm only able to get one song on there and thats taking forever to burn since I have to use a smaller chissle to get more data compression.

I have a better idea... (5, Funny)

TheShadow (76709) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314522)

To limit copies of CDs made, the recording industry should just keep producing the same old crap that nobody wants anyway.

Re:I have a better idea... (1)

Timesprout (579035) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314594)

They _are_ trying this theory at the moment.

Survey Says... (3, Informative)

calebb (685461) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314524)

Survey says... people don't like DRM.

2002 Lawsuit againts SunnComm [com.com]

Good discussion on DRM [matthew.ath.cx]
The problem with trying to protect information with technology is that it has been shown repeatedly not to work. It only takes one person to crack the protection, and a million people can get a digital copy of the cracked work in days. During DEFCON, a digital security conference held in America last year, a Russian programmer called Dmitry Sklyarov illustrated this by showing how easy it was to circumvent the protection on Adobe's "E-Books". For this service to the public and to Adobe he was arrested and tried by the FBI, under the provision of the DMCA, the American version of the EUCD already part of US law since 1998.

Obviously, the same problem exists with the technology Macrovision & SunnComm are currently proposing. It just takes one person to create a DRM-less digital copy & post it on the latest P2P network...

for a friend... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314529)

I doubt they want people burning a copy for a friend

Never work (2, Informative)

zenrandom (708587) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314531)

Sure, I bet all the hardware, OS, and applications people are going to jump right on and support this. Especially the open source ones.
Even if they all did... What's to stop me from ripping the image and repeatedly using that. Or ripping off one superb quality MP3 or OV and using that for my burns.
When will they learn that prohibiting us only inspires us to find ways around it!

Re:Never work (1)

periol (767926) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314673)

Yeah, the cd image is the key factor that they don't seem to be taking into account. The article is very sketchy on details - I'd be curious what this technology looks like (software or hardware?).

But that doesn't matter. Like everything else that we hear in this arena, the labels assume some people will be able to get around it. They're trying to make it difficult, not impossible, for people to rip and burn.

I guess it's time... (5, Insightful)

Microsift (223381) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314545)

To repeal the tax on media. If the record companies develop a scheme to limit cd burning, it makes sense that people who buy blank media shouldd not pay a tax that reimburses record companies for people making copies of music. Since the labels can control how many copies of a CD are made, they can factor this into the price of a CD.

this is for canada (1)

millahtime (710421) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314602)

Just a point. The parent is for Canada not the US or others.

Re:this is for canada (1)

Microsift (223381) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314654)

I'm pretty sure there is a (hidden)tax in the U.S. on blank CD's

Re:this is for canada (1)

FattMattP (86246) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314716)

No, American's pay a media tax as well and have been ever since DAT came out.

Re:this is for canada (1)

periol (767926) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314720)

No, this is not just Canada. There is a tax on Cd-Rs designated for burning music in the US.

Re:I guess it's time... (1)

djeaux (620938) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314711)

To repeal the tax on media.

Maybe it's time for them to revisit the MSRP for CDs altogether. When CDs first appeared about 20 years ago, a vinyl LP could be had for six bucks or so. CDs were more than double that price. We were told that the high price was to recoup the R&D costs associated with the new medium.

Surely 20 years has been long enough! Why aren't new albums being released for under $10 as a rule & not the exception?

Price of product & quality of product are the real reasons for declining record company revenues (if their revenues are really declining).

One thing I don't understand... (1)

John Betonschaar (178617) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314546)

...is what happens when I make a copy of my copy of the original. Would that be impossible too, and if so, how??

Re:One thing I don't understand... (1)

Lord Bitman (95493) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314568)

"if so, how??" maybe you dont understand the original illogic of being able to limit copies of the original.

Re:One thing I don't understand... (0)

John Betonschaar (178617) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314623)

As long as I can make an image of the original, I can make unlimited copies of this image (which is a copy of the original), that's what I meant...

Again? (-1, Troll)

NetNinja (469346) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314551)

These fuckers never stop. IT WILL NEVER WORK YOU MORONS!
You cannot compete with a world wide army of 12 to 45 year olds!

Don't mind if... (4, Interesting)

Lysander Luddite (64349) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314552)

What I would prefer to see is my current ability to make unlimited dups of my *original* CD. I don't mind creating "mules" that is copies that then can't be copied, but if I bought it, I shoudl be able to make as many copies as I want/need for personal use and not have them tied to a physical machine.

wake up RIAA (0, Redundant)

millahtime (710421) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314554)

the RIAA and recording industry needs to wake up. People know how to get past the protections. There will be softwares written to do it.

They need to learn to except whats going on and change their business model.

I'll say it again (1)

GatorMan (70959) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314556)

Anything digital can be circumnavigated. There's always a way. And as long as Lite-On has $30 52X burners and Memorex has 100-pack spindles for $19.99, they will be used feverishly and for whatever purpose we choose.

Re:I'll say it again (1)

Durandal64 (658649) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314678)

Anything digital can be
circumnavigated. There's always a way. And as long as Lite-On has $30 52X burners and Memorex has 100-pack spindles for $19.99, they will be used feverishly and for whatever purpose we choose.
I think the word you were looking for was "circumvented."

Re:I'll say it again (1)

GatorMan (70959) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314727)

Right. I was thinking "any digital restrictions can be..." but my fingers didn't follow.

Re:I'll say it again (1)

AndroidCat (229562) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314735)

No, I'd say that the word he wanted was definitely circumcised. :)

Re:I'll say it again (1)

The_K4 (627653) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314718)

I was at Fry's on monday and they had CD duplicators for ~$210. So if you skip the Like-On burner and get on of these, i'm pretty sure taht all their "auto-run" crap won't stop you from copying with that.

it'll never work (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314557)

i give it 5 minutes until its cracked.

i wish they'd stop investing in this kind of research and spend some money finding decent artists and getting them airtime instead of trying to pin the consumer to the floor via software.

its just not going to work guys, save your $$$ and accept that times have changed, technology has moved on, your old business models just won't work anymore and no amount of legislation or drm will make it work.

just my 2p

In other news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314564)

...an encryption scheme designed by Macrovison and SunnComm International has already been cracked by an 11-year old with a 486.

Back to the drawing board.

Apple's already done the work (2, Insightful)

bravehamster (44836) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314571)

Apple's already taken care of this for you. It's called iTunes. If they switch to a digital only distribution method such as iTunes, then they can control how many times you can burn that particular album as it was meant to be heard by the artist. Of course, you can always copy the newly burnt disc, but that will be true of *any* copy protection that is backwards compatible with the redbook standard.

No they havn't (1)

millahtime (710421) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314635)

Apple's already taken care of this for you. It's called iTunes. If they switch to a digital only distribution method such as iTunes, then they can control how many times you can burn that particular album as it was meant to be heard by the artist. Of course, you can always copy the newly burnt disc, but that will be true of *any* copy protection that is backwards compatible with the redbook standard.

They have created a way to allow a playlist to be burned only so many times. You can create a new playlist with the same songs and keep on burning.

duhhhh (1)

takitus (733922) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314572)

yeah... ive been waiting for this day for a long time. kinda like the day i got my leg cut off. maybe i can send them back that check for $12 they sent me so they can get this out the door faster.

who would buy/use this. thank god for linux

One copy is all you need (2, Informative)

Patik (584959) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314580)

Rip the CD once to FLAC (a lossless codec) and you're all set. You can make unlimited copies (burning CDs, MP3s, etc) from those files and just toss the store-bought disc in your closet.

And all it takes is one pirate to rip the CD and put it on Kazaa.

Bizarro-World (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314584)

We am RIAA. We am hyping new protection scheme which also don't work, just like old protection scheme. We am again forgetting protection system depends on software to co-operate. Since software not co-operate last time, we am trying again.

Uh-huh (5, Insightful)

RickHunter (103108) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314586)

Right, I'm sure this will work wonderfully. What do they plan to do, replace my CD-burning program? And how, exactly, are they going to do that? Is this just going to be another "corrupt strategic sectors of the CD" strategy? I thought they learned last time they tried that and discovered that a lot of CD players wouldn't read the CD at all. And never mind the fact that one could just rip to WAV files and then burn from there...

In short, it sounds to me like more snake oil salesmen peddling their wares to a desperate industry with a failed business model. I can't see any way to do this that's compatible with existing hardware and doesn't require control of the software. Which they most definitely don't have, no matter how much Microsoft wishes they did. To say nothing of the fact that anything implementing this "technology" would, by necessity, violate the Red Book CD Audio standard and run afoul of the same labelling laws as existing "methods".

BMG Music Group (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314588)

BMG Music Group
NIC Card
ATM Machine

Anyone got any others?

What is the threat they are trying to defend (4, Insightful)

color of static (16129) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314590)

Let's face it, any self respecting pirate will make a binary copy (bit for bit) of any digital media. Once you have the bits, no technology will limit the numbers of copies you make. They are targetting the little guy who makes a few copies, etiher under fair use or slightly beyond. Someone who just casually wants to make a copy, but isn't going to try really hard before shelling out for another CD.

This isn't about limitting piracy, but boosting sales. May seem the same thing, but in this case I don't think it is.

Ridiculous... (0, Offtopic)

[Galaxie] (40909) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314596)

Why don't they invest the money they waste researching and developing crap that will be cracked by a 15 year old kid in about 10 minutes into something worth while..

like to cancer research affordable housing, feeding starving families, cleaning up cities, more efficient automobiles, alternative energy, etc, etc...

They never learn (5, Insightful)

CaptainZapp (182233) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314600)

A brief analysis' of the industries feeble efforts to regain control and protect their turf (basically the distribution channells)

You guys sold corrupted and crippled disks to your customers.
Did it work? No

You tried this super duper water marking scheme.
Did it work? No, in fact Prof. Felten and his team broke it within a week

You're attacking your customers, insult them and threaten legal action..
Did it work? No, in fact you're pissing your customers off

You tried yet different approaches to "copy protect" the medium.
Did it work? No, in fact you piss people off, since the can't play their legally purchased product on their legally purchased car cd player

Is there no more new material available since you tried to force all those smart schemes on your customers?
Hell! of course! within minutes after availability on "cd"

So here's a free hint for you:

Why don't you make a product available, which is of good quality, cheap, readily available and doesn't force us to give up our privacy and suck your ducks just so that we can listen to a song? You know, sort of like Apple did it (and which rumour says you're in the process of killing by higer prices and enforced bundling).

Provide us with a convenient, realistically priced product, not being throttled by rediculous schemes (region coding anyone?). Stop insulting our intelligence and integrity and stop treating us like criminals and I'll promise:

We buy!

NB: Focusing on a good products might help sales too. There's only so much Britney and Back Street Boys you can listen to before throwing up.

You forgot about Nelly... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314692)

Who is releasing 2 CD's at once. One is called "Sweat", the other is called "Suit". Get it?

If it can be read.. (1)

Karamchand (607798) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314609)

..it can be copied. And even if I have to copy a copy...

If you can play it, you can copy it... (1)

rsidd (6328) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314613)

Just put an analog-to-digital converter on the analog output. There will be some degradation in sound quality, but it's one time and not noticeable for most people (certainly not for people who listen to MP3s), and after that there's no more copy protection. (And there's software for linux that will "trap" the pcm output, eg vsound [xenoclast.org] , with no loss in quality.)

No, they don't get it.

Re:If you can play it, you can copy it... (1)

spidergoat2 (715962) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314715)

You're exactly right. In fact, I don't even think you'd need to go to analog, I'm pretty sure that I could download, via firewire, a CD to tape on my digital camcorder. From the camcorder, I could probably make unlimited copies. Camcorders, the other tape backup.

This technology might actually work....... (2, Insightful)

Ride-My-Rocket (96935) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314617)

Seeing as how I haven't purchased more than a handful of albums in the past two years, I think they can count all of their efforts to prevent me from copying their music as a resounding success.

A solution (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314618)

Just reading the article gave me an idea on how to bypass the new burn limit... make a cd image and burn ad infinitum.

Possibly confusing subject? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314622)

Am I the only one who read the subject as "Recording Industry Hopes To Hinder CD Buying"?

Well, it kind of fits.

Absurd... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314627)

The only thing this is going to do is piss off the average non-tech savvy consumer. Those who want to break DRM will be able to do so no matter what. This is mainly going to effect the person who is using for legitimate purposes, who may then decide to stop buying CDs altogether.

Rapid spreading (2, Insightful)

mrpuffypants (444598) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314631)

One thing that all of these uber-DRM schemes don't take into account is that all it takes is ONE person to crack the code, or re-encode the CD via analog means into his computer and post it on KaZaa. Once it hits KaZaa then it's over for the DRM on that CD. People can then swap it all they want, regardless of if their CD only allows for 3 burns or whatever.

Also, how receptive will people be to a CD that can only be copied 3 times over its lifetime? Let's say that you're 16 and buy the new Britney Spears CD to listen to. You make one copy for home and one for your new car. Years down the road you make 2 more copies for various reasons and then want to make a 4th dupe of the CD. Wait, you can't, because you're limited to 3 burns over the CD's lifetime. Or, more likely, the company that makes the burning software that keeps track of your burns goes out of business and suddently their servers and backend stuff to keep track of all of this breaks down. Or you run Linux and they don't make software for linux because there's not enough of a market for it. Or you have a Mac and they just don't support Macs. Or your original CD gets scratched, can you then make a copy of the copy w/out the DRM getting involved?

It's just too much for people to keep thinking about over the span of years owning music. This will fail.

Foolishness (1)

CaseM (746707) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314637)

The people hurting the RIAA aren't the onesy-twosy CD-copying Joe Users that they're ultimately going to screw with this, it's the CD factories overseas that mass-produce thousands upon thousands of bootleg CD's. And you can be sure they'll have no problem getting around such limitations.

That's just brilliant (1)

lordDallan (685707) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314640)

What a great way to encourage even bigger losses in CD sales. As a consumer, I see this as a CD with design obsolescence. And what about copies of copies? Am I now supposed to keep my original in a hermetically sealed vault, only to bring it out when my most recent copy dies? One more tick towards total failure?

And wouldn't this make tracks I buy from the iTunes music store superior to physical CDs? After all, I can burn them as many times as I want.

Since physical CDs are supposed to be a cash cow for the record industry, I don't see why they'd be excited to make them less attractive to consumers than they already are?!?

Well, off I go to MicroCenter (2)

magefile (776388) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314641)

To stock up on DRM incompatible CD burners. If the CD works with 'em, copy protection is gone. If it doesn't, I'll sue 'em for labeling non-CDs as CDs - in small claims court. Small claims court protects the little guy from having a huge company's big guns brought to bear, but imagine the /. effect applied here - even less than $500 judgements could become costly.

MP3/OGG? (1)

NiTr|c (130325) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314649)

After looking over the article, it seems that this technology just hinders directly copying a CD. What happens if you extract the audio to your hard drive in MP3 or OGG format first, then just burn those tracks to disc? Does this technology still work? Isn't this what a lot of people do anyway, copy the CD to their computers then burn individual tracks from many CDs to make personalized compilations. I know that's what I do frequently. It wouldn't make much sense to just limit CD->CD copying with no thought on audio extraction. Though, it's not that I like either idea in the first place.

Jesus.. It'll never work. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314651)

RIAA, LISTEN!

If you can HEAR the music, then you can COPY the music.

Jesus. Any 8 year old could understand this. Copy protection schemes are not the answer.

Let them. There are better alternatives (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314657)

I have yet to see a copy protected CD from any of the labels I usually buy from - as a matter of fact, many of them are making their music available as ultra high qualioty Lame VBR MP3s through eMusic [emusic.com] .

More people need to check out the free mp3s at Epitonic [epitonic.com] and Insound [insound.com] to get a taste of what's available from indie labels - virtually all of it in unprotected formats, and virtually all of it far better than the slop the major labels dump out on Clear Channel. Check out The Streets - "Fit But You Know It" at Insound - catchiest single I've heard for years! Great stuff!

Very Interesting (4, Insightful)

The-Bus (138060) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314658)

Well, frankly, it can't be done... At least not within the CD. My only guess is that the CD has software that auto-loads, tells a server that the CD has been burned n times and that it now can no longer be burned. If I change my hosts file, EAC [exactaudiocopy.de] is not going to care what the CD is doing. In fact, all "copy protected" CDs I've been able to rip or make copies of for myself using EAC (including this very excellent one:Soulive's Turn It Out Remixed [allmusic.com] ). Once you rip the WAV files and copy that, the little auto-run software is gone.

That's the problem(?) with DRM. You need to implement it in hardware AND software at the same time for it to be able to "work" (see: DVD Region Codes) and even then it's not really going to work (ibid).

Now TO BE FAIR, this idea has its heart in the right place. I don't think anyone but the most extreme zealots would argue that a person should be able to make 10,000 copies of a CD by another artist. But where is that number? It's higher than "just a couple" but probably around "several".

Or, this could be a way to make DRM seem friendly and logical, have everyone implement it, then change it so it's what we all know it's going to turn out to be: crippling and crippled.

But what can they do? (1)

ViolentGreen (704134) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314659)

Seriously...

No matter what they do, they can not take serious action without breaking compatibility with the millions of cd players already out there.

It has to be completely voluntary. I'm sure we all know how that will work.

Easy! Just TAX Blank CD-Rs! (1)

mekkab (133181) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314666)

Its so simple! Add a SIN tax! I think this has worked to curb smoking and drinking, right?

So... how does this work? (4, Insightful)

Fallen Kell (165468) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314670)

Seriously, unless they lockdown ALL current burning software/hardware there is no way to apply this for current generation CD burning technology. This is why macrovision can be defeated simply by using an old VCR. Unless they force firmware/software upgrades to everyone (in which case most people will never do the upgrade given how well they already deal with patches), there is nothing that would truely work.

I mean really, think about it. The only storage mechanism they have available is the local hard drive or the CD itself. Well, the CD itself would only work as a method IF the CD is actually in the burner. I sure don't use my burner READ the CD I am making a copy of, it goes into a DVD-ROM, hense no write laser. That leaves the hard drive, and unless they lockdown the CD to only be used on that 1 computer (which would actually mean it is no longer a CD), you could just:
a) delete the storage file with the current data causing it to believe the CD was never copied before
b) use a different computer
c) wipe your hard drive
d) use linux
e) use BSD
f) make an iso image of the CD and transfer that across the net...

This does nothing at all to stop actuall pirates (as can be proven by letter "f" in the above options). How long do you think it will take our current firmware hackers to do a diff on the updates and remove any "protection" from a fireware, especially in this day when people already have dual layer DVD burner firmware for DVD burners which the companies are not releasing the firmware for 6 months in order to get people to buy their $200 dual layer burner instead of their $80 single layer burner which has the same hardware...

Re:So... how does this work? (1)

tuffy (10202) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314734)

I can't say precisely, but it's a safe bet this method will involve some Windows-specific program that's intended to auto-launch when the CD is inserted and meant to protect the contents. The notion of anyone using a non-Windows computer to copy audio from a CD isn't going to cross their minds.

ooh (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314682)

Wow, the record industry tries to hinder CD burning?! Stop the presses! Better add that to the list [brunching.com] .

process of elimination (1)

ksuhr (68961) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314684)


meanwhile, at the secret RIAA underground HQ:
Let's see,

shift key defeat...check!
whatever keypress bypasses this method...check!

ah, only ~102 to go and victory is ours, mwa ha ha

Pirates vs Piracy (1)

mbourgon (186257) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314686)

So this stops the casual copier. Big whoop. What about the fact that they lose a significant amount of money to pirates that mass-produce it? Buy a 500$ CD-Copier, and it'll include the copy protection in the copy. They'll still lose the money on that CD. Not to mention that for the casual copier, they'll just grab the mp3s off the net.

Given the costs of piracy, ... (1)

burgburgburg (574866) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314691)

Given the costs of piracy, however, the labels are moving ahead cautiously in the hope of striking on a formula that works.

It's so encouraging to know that the ever-unexamined "costs of piracy" is still the main bugaboo of the RIAA. Heavens forbid that they look over any of the actual research that shows that "piracy" has no major impact on the business. Saints preserve them from looking over their own books to see that their severe reduction of output over the past few years has been a major element of the decline in sales. Let's pray they never look at the sales figures of the most pirated CDs which tend to increase, not decrease as P2P goes up.

Any other industry with this many virulently clueless individuals in charge would have gone bankrupt years ago.

Hard Problem (2, Interesting)

swillden (191260) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314708)

Given that they haven't yet managed to create a CD that is uncopyable, what makes them think they're going to be able to make one that is copyable for a while and then becomes uncopyable? That's a much harder problem.

It'll be interesting to see what the technological approach is. An autoplayed Windows app on the CD would be the simplest route, but even that would be very difficult. It would have to somehow interfere with your CD burning application to store an updated "burn count" on the new CD -- or to prevent burning if the count had reached some threshold. I suppose rather than putting the burn count on the CD they could store the data on the net somewhere... that way they could keep track of how many copies of any particular purchased CD were made. This approach would obviously be trivial to defeat (shift key, for example).

A slightly better way might be to combine an "uncopyable" audio CD (assuming they can find a way to do that that works well) with an extra, compressed and encrypted copy of the audio and an autoplayed Windows app that can burn from this encrypted source. The big challenge here would be to use a standard CD burner to create a playable but not copyable audio CD to prevent next-generation copies, except via the same tool. Managing the burn count would be easy, this way, since it would be their burning software doing the work.

Outside of some sort of software on the CD that attempts to control burning, or a future MS OS that has the DRM built in, I don't see what they can possibly try to do.

Well, I suppose they could create a completely new audio format that is incompatible with CDs but has DRM features built in. Perhaps they could even do a decent job on the "security" (unlike the DVD standard), but then they'd have to figure out how to get consumers to buy it, and all of the equipment needed to play it. Not likely.

Black whiteboard marker (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9314709)

The last CD that I ran across that had copy protection on it belonged to a coworker of mine. He wanted to rip it, so I ran a stripe of black whiteboard marker around the outside and erased little bits of it until the whole last (audio) track ripped correctly.

Ironically, I bet that cdda2wav on a *nix box wouldn't have been fooled by the silly data track. But at the time I didn't have a *nix box with a CD reader handy.

This is how they justify CD costs! (2, Funny)

erroneus (253617) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314714)

All the money they are spending on copy and playback prevention is obviously their justification for the outrageous prices for music CDs. They are just about as expensive as the average DVD at Best Buy!

I haven't purchased a music CD in years and years and I don't plan to while this is going on. I am increasingly firm on this position since I was reminded of the problems of copy (playback) protection used on the latest generation of defective CDs when a friend in Japan bought a Janet Jackson CD and couldn't play it in her car without excessive skipping. I explained to her what the problem is and that she should return the CD for refund and wrote to the CD publisher.

iTunes and Burn (1)

glenrm (640773) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314721)

The only reason I use iTunes is the unlimited burning (I know 8/10 per play list). It is time to move on to digital downloads and away from all of this cd key and cd protection nonsense. In many case the protection causes bugs, crashes, and general system instability.

Sarbanes/Oxley (2, Interesting)

Stormcrow309 (590240) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314722)

I wonder if the RIAA's 'cost of piracy' numbers fall under any of the new Sarbanes/Oxley rules for Financial Reporting. I would love to see the proof of those numbers.

A car and a vacation home? (0, Troll)

KevinDumpsCore (127671) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314728)

> enough for a car, a vacation home...

IMHO, if you can afford both a car and a vacation home then you can afford to pay full price for multiple CDs. What would be fairer would be a "means-tested" law that says that if you can't afford a car and a vacation home then you can burn a few CDs.

CD Copy Software Support? (5, Interesting)

randomErr (172078) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314730)

Wouldn't your CD burning software have to support this 'limit copy feature' already? Doesn't most burning software first make an ISO or a BIN of the CD(with encryption) and then burn the EXACT copy of the original CD? So if I'm making an EXACT copy of a product, never changing a bit in the process, how is it going to know I'm making copies?

Totally wrong angle (2, Insightful)

thehomeland (750151) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314738)

The RIAAs attempts to sue the individuals that perpetuate "crimes" (I don't believe in intellectual property) against them are doing themselves (the RIAA) a terrible discredit, and are only fueling contempt and reason to pirate more. Pirates now will likely mass-distribute with the deliberate purpose of causing mass sales-figure-drops in order to annihilate this absurd tactic. The RIAA's angle should be to positively reinforce discouragement of duplication (similar to the way the "truth" campaign commercials do for smoking, which are quite good IMO) People who do not pirate may even take up the task of doing so to lash back at the seemingly oppressive RIAA. They (RIAA) are, in a sense, trying to put out the fire with kerosene.

HAHAHAHAAHAHAA (0, Offtopic)

t_allardyce (48447) | more than 10 years ago | (#9314739)

HAHA hahAHAHAHAA oh oh please HAHAH AHAHh ahhahahahaha i cant stop please please hahahaha hhahahaha i cant hhhahhah ahahaha i cant hahahahha breeethhe hahahahhhahah no hahahha hahahaha ROFL hahaha i cant stop! hahahhahah wait hahah wait hahhahahahaha i wont hahahahahahhah oh hahaha i wont press my shift key then!!! ROFL!
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