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Danish FreeBSD Dev. Sues Lenovo Over "Microsoft Tax"

kdawson posted more than 4 years ago | from the cracks-in-the-dam dept.

The Courts 318

Handbrewer writes "The FreeBSD developer Poul-Henning Kamp (phk) has sued Lenovo in Denmark (Google translation, original here) over their refusal to refund the Windows Vista Business license, even though he declined the EULA during installation. Lenovo argues that they sell the computer as a full product, and that they cannot refund it partially, such as the power supply or the OS even if people intend to use a different one. This seems to be contrary to previous rulings in the EU where Acer and HP has been forced to refund the 'Microsoft tax.'"

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318 comments

Your official guide to the Jigaboo presidency (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29065565)

Congratulations on your purchase of a brand new nigger! If handled properly, your apeman will give years of valuable, if reluctant, service.

INSTALLING YOUR NIGGER.
You should install your nigger differently according to whether you have purchased the field or house model. Field niggers work best in a serial configuration, i.e. chained together. Chain your nigger to another nigger immediately after unpacking it, and don't even think about taking that chain off, ever. Many niggers start singing as soon as you put a chain on them. This habit can usually be thrashed out of them if nipped in the bud. House niggers work best as standalone units, but should be hobbled or hamstrung to prevent attempts at escape. At this stage, your nigger can also be given a name. Most owners use the same names over and over, since niggers become confused by too much data. Rufus, Rastus, Remus, Toby, Carslisle, Carlton, Hey-You!-Yes-you!, Yeller, Blackstar, and Sambo are all effective names for your new buck nigger. If your nigger is a ho, it should be called Latrelle, L'Tanya, or Jemima. Some owners call their nigger hoes Latrine for a joke. Pearl, Blossom, and Ivory are also righteous names for nigger hoes. These names go straight over your nigger's head, by the way.

CONFIGURING YOUR NIGGER
Owing to a design error, your nigger comes equipped with a tongue and vocal chords. Most niggers can master only a few basic human phrases with this apparatus - "muh dick" being the most popular. However, others make barking, yelping, yapping noises and appear to be in some pain, so you should probably call a vet and have him remove your nigger's tongue. Once de-tongued your nigger will be a lot happier - at least, you won't hear it complaining anywhere near as much. Niggers have nothing interesting to say, anyway. Many owners also castrate their niggers for health reasons (yours, mine, and that of women, not the nigger's). This is strongly recommended, and frankly, it's a mystery why this is not done on the boat

HOUSING YOUR NIGGER.
Your nigger can be accommodated in cages with stout iron bars. Make sure, however, that the bars are wide enough to push pieces of nigger food through. The rule of thumb is, four niggers per square yard of cage. So a fifteen foot by thirty foot nigger cage can accommodate two hundred niggers. You can site a nigger cage anywhere, even on soft ground. Don't worry about your nigger fashioning makeshift shovels out of odd pieces of wood and digging an escape tunnel under the bars of the cage. Niggers never invented the shovel before and they're not about to now. In any case, your nigger is certainly too lazy to attempt escape. As long as the free food holds out, your nigger is living better than it did in Africa, so it will stay put. Buck niggers and hoe niggers can be safely accommodated in the same cage, as bucks never attempt sex with black hoes.

FEEDING YOUR NIGGER.
Your Nigger likes fried chicken, corn bread, and watermelon. You should therefore give it none of these things because its lazy ass almost certainly doesn't deserve it. Instead, feed it on porridge with salt, and creek water. Your nigger will supplement its diet with whatever it finds in the fields, other niggers, etc. Experienced nigger owners sometimes push watermelon slices through the bars of the nigger cage at the end of the day as a treat, but only if all niggers have worked well and nothing has been stolen that day. Mike of the Old Ranch Plantation reports that this last one is a killer, since all niggers steal something almost every single day of their lives. He reports he doesn't have to spend much on free watermelon for his niggers as a result. You should never allow your nigger meal breaks while at work, since if it stops work for more than ten minutes it will need to be retrained. You would be surprised how long it takes to teach a nigger to pick cotton. You really would. Coffee beans? Don't ask. You have no idea.

MAKING YOUR NIGGER WORK.
Niggers are very, very averse to work of any kind. The nigger's most prominent anatomical feature, after all, its oversized buttocks, which have evolved to make it more comfortable for your nigger to sit around all day doing nothing for its entire life. Niggers are often good runners, too, to enable them to sprint quickly in the opposite direction if they see work heading their way. The solution to this is to *dupe* your nigger into working. After installation, encourage it towards the cotton field with blows of a wooden club, fence post, baseball bat, etc., and then tell it that all that cotton belongs to a white man, who won't be back until tomorrow. Your nigger will then frantically compete with the other field niggers to steal as much of that cotton as it can before the white man returns. At the end of the day, return your nigger to its cage and laugh at its stupidity, then repeat the same trick every day indefinitely. Your nigger comes equipped with the standard nigger IQ of 75 and a memory to match, so it will forget this trick overnight. Niggers can start work at around 5am. You should then return to bed and come back at around 10am. Your niggers can then work through until around 10pm or whenever the light fades.

ENTERTAINING YOUR NIGGER.
Your nigger enjoys play, like most animals, so you should play with it regularly. A happy smiling nigger works best. Games niggers enjoy include: 1) A good thrashing: every few days, take your nigger's pants down, hang it up by its heels, and have some of your other niggers thrash it with a club or whip. Your nigger will signal its intense enjoyment by shrieking and sobbing. 2) Lynch the nigger: niggers are cheap and there are millions more where yours came from. So every now and then, push the boat out a bit and lynch a nigger.

Lynchings are best done with a rope over the branch of a tree, and niggers just love to be lynched. It makes them feel special. Make your other niggers watch. They'll be so grateful, they'll work harder for a day or two (and then you can lynch another one). 3) Nigger dragging: Tie your nigger by one wrist to the tow bar on the back of suitable vehicle, then drive away at approximately 50mph. Your nigger's shrieks of enjoyment will be heard for miles. It will shriek until it falls apart. To prolong the fun for the nigger, do *NOT* drag him by his feet, as his head comes off too soon. This is painless for the nigger, but spoils the fun. Always wear a seatbelt and never exceed the speed limit. 4) Playing on the PNL: a variation on (2), except you can lynch your nigger out in the fields, thus saving work time. Niggers enjoy this game best if the PNL is operated by a man in a tall white hood. 5) Hunt the nigger: a variation of Hunt the Slipper, but played outdoors, with Dobermans. WARNING: do not let your Dobermans bite a nigger, as they are highly toxic.

DISPOSAL OF DEAD NIGGERS.
Niggers die on average at around 40, which some might say is 40 years too late, but there you go. Most people prefer their niggers dead, in fact. When yours dies, report the license number of the car that did the drive-by shooting of your nigger. The police will collect the nigger and dispose of it for you.

COMMON PROBLEMS WITH NIGGERS - MY NIGGER IS VERY AGGRESIVE
Have it put down, for god's sake. Who needs an uppity nigger? What are we, short of niggers or something?

MY NIGGER KEEPS RAPING WHITE WOMEN
They all do this. Shorten your nigger's chain so it can't reach any white women, and arm heavily any white women who might go near it.

WILL MY NIGGER ATTACK ME?
Not unless it outnumbers you 20 to 1, and even then, it's not likely. If niggers successfully overthrew their owners, they'd have to sort out their own food. This is probably why nigger uprisings were nonexistent (until some fool gave them rights).

MY NIGGER BITCHES ABOUT ITS "RIGHTS" AND "RACISM".
Yeah, well, it would. Tell it to shut the fuck up.

MY NIGGER'S HIDE IS A FUNNY COLOR. - WHAT IS THE CORRECT SHADE FOR A NIGGER?
A nigger's skin is actually more or less transparent. That brown color you can see is the shit your nigger is full of. This is why some models of nigger are sold as "The Shitskin".

MY NIGGER ACTS LIKE A NIGGER, BUT IS WHITE.
What you have there is a "wigger". Rough crowd. WOW!

IS THAT LIKE AN ALBINO? ARE THEY RARE?
They're as common as dog shit and about as valuable. In fact, one of them was President between 1992 and 2000. Put your wigger in a cage with a few hundred genuine niggers and you'll soon find it stops acting like a nigger. However, leave it in the cage and let the niggers dispose of it. The best thing for any wigger is a dose of TNB.

MY NIGGER SMELLS REALLY BAD
And you were expecting what?

SHOULD I STORE MY DEAD NIGGER?
When you came in here, did you see a sign that said "Dead nigger storage"? .That's because there ain't no goddamn sign.

freebsd dev (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29065569)

there is no such thing as a "freebsd developer". All those guys died YEARS ago.

Lenovo needs reality check (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29065595)

In many cases, Lenovo has been playing hardball with the Windows tax refunds.
It is good to see them getting done with.

At least they are not as ridiculous as Toshiba that put a sticker on new computers where they disclaim any responsibility for Microsoft tax refunds!
http://nakedcomputers.org/ [nakedcomputers.org]

Full refund (3, Informative)

sakdoctor (1087155) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065605)

Better have a full refund and buy from someone else.
Case closed

Re:Full refund (5, Insightful)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065625)

Nah.
Much better to push a microsoft tax onto the company via lawsuits.
Then they will feel the pain and make refunds a standard policy.
Lots and lots of lawsuits even better.

Re:Full refund (2, Insightful)

FudRucker (866063) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065649)

find enough people and make it a class action...

Re:Full refund (4, Insightful)

IdleTime (561841) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065799)

Du er sikkert ikke dansk men en Amerikaner!

Why is it that you think class action lawsuits are something found all over the world? Why is it you think that the world follow the US judicial system? Are you really so totally uninformed about the world outside your own country?

Btw, the US do not have a justice system, it only has a punishment system.

Re:Full refund (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29066107)

Btw, the US do not have a justice system, it only has a punishment system.

This statement alone should be marked +5 insightful (and that's coming from US citizen).

Re:Full refund (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29066191)

Yeah! Because obviously you're a total idiot if you make a single line comment on /. without doing your research on the laws of the individual European countries, and then the EU itself!

Btw you're a troll.

Re:Full refund (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29066457)

No, He would have been a troll if he just called people names. You know, like you just did.

Re:Full refund (4, Insightful)

kevinNCSU (1531307) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066463)

Are you really so uninformed as to believe the majority of the people in this world have a deep understandings of the workings of their own legal systems let alone all the particulars of the legal systems of all the other countries of the world?

Or did it just seem like a convenient time to bash the ignorant Americans and get modded up for it?

Re:Full refund (4, Interesting)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066285)

Class action suits don't help anyone but the lawyers. I've been contacted by lawyers pressing class action suits against various companies, but I never reply any more. Gyped out of a hundred buck by some ratty product, and you get maye five bucks out of the deal while the lawyers get millions. It's not even worth sending the card back in.

Re:Full refund (5, Insightful)

Sloppy (14984) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065831)

Or even better to make them offer Windows as a totally separate product, not automatically part of every computer purchase.

Let's not lose sight of who is to blame, though. (I take that back: let's lose sight after all, because it's more complicated than most people suspect.) Microsoft sells a product to Lenovo. Lenovo resells it. Microsoft puts wording on a paper or the screen, saying that if you don't want their stuff, Lenovo will give you your money back. WTF? How can Microsoft speak for Lenovo? Pretty damn arrogant. Did Lenovo agree to that?

Actually, that's a very serious question: Does Lenovo become bound to the EULA? Are they re-selling Windows or re-licensing it?

The Blizzard case's judge asserted that "title transfers" don't ever happen with software. Nothing is ever sold. Ergo, if you walk into a retail store and pay cash for a Blizzard game just like you would for a loaf of bread, you're not actually buying it. That means the retailer never bought it either. Ergo, the retailer must have licensed it as well (though they never even opened the package so never even implicitly agreed to the EULA -- ah, the mystical magic of EULAs, the only kind of contract of its kind!).

The Blizzard judge would say that Lenovo signed a contract in blood with both Microsoft and the computer purchaser, and therefore Lenovo agreed to every term Microsoft put in the license: Lenovo must pay the refund that Microsoft offered. Any layman would say Lenovo is just a reseller and has no obligation to Microsoft to pay refunds on their behalf; the EULA is between Microsoft and whoever reads it -- but that layman also wants his money back and damn well knows Microsoft ain't gonna pay it.

Re:Full refund (2, Interesting)

T-Bone-T (1048702) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066097)

Of course Lenovo is not bound to the EULA. Lenovo is not the EU, End User. They have a different agreement/license/contract.

Re:Full refund (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29066155)

I'm sure Lenovo can't just put Windows on their laptops and sell them without some sort of agreement with Microsoft.

It's reasonable to assume that Lenovo at some time signed a contract with Microsoft and that that contract says something about Microsoft's EULA and the refund policy. Lenovo is probably not bound by the EULA itself, but rather by the mentioned contract.

Nothing arrogant about that.

Re:Full refund (1)

ILongForDarkness (1134931) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066257)

No they don't promise to refund, the OEM license says: "However you may compensate end users for Software or Hardware returned to you under the License Terms." (http://www.microsoft.com/oem/sblicense/default.mspx) . Note the may. Also, OEM licensing involves buying the licenses in bulk for a large discount. In that sense the OEM is a reseller because they are using multiple customers' purchases to qualify for the bulk discounts.

They aren't just buying a copy of Windows off the shelf and installing it on the system for you. They are saying: "we will sell 20k computers this month so we'll buy 20k licenses and hand them out as we move computers". The OEM licenses are special in my understanding in that they are not transferable. In the mean time the OEM owns the licenses or at least the rights to a license. Similarly a store with 20k boxed copies of Windows that has a fire "owns" them as far as inventory/insurance goes.

Re:Full refund (1)

russotto (537200) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066415)

The Blizzard case's judge asserted that "title transfers" don't ever happen with software. Nothing is ever sold.

Which means the Uniform Commercial Code doesn't apply. I doubt he considered the implications of that, though; he just wanted to rule for Blizzard. However, that was a US case and this is in Denmark...

Re:Full refund (0)

Tarlus (1000874) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066151)

But that would be like suing a car dealership for not refunding the cost of tires and rims of a new car when you decide to add your own custom wheels instead. If the person is so gung-ho about not having to pay for Windows then he/she should have done ten minutes of research to find a manufacturer that isn't contractually obligated by Microsoft to include a Windows license.

Re:Full refund (2)

KevinKnSC (744603) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066397)

Your analogy would work if there was a note in the car saying that you either agree to an additional contract regarding your use of the tires, or the dealer will refund the price of the tires and take them back.

Re:Full refund (3, Insightful)

Dishevel (1105119) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066495)

When buying a new car you can in fact let the dealer know that you do not want the stock tires and wheels. You can then work a deal with the dealer to pay less for the car. Or. You can sell the stock tires and wheels as you paid for them and now own them. The same is not true for a software license.If the car dealership sells you the car. Offers no way to not pay for certain parts and then makes it illegal to sell any of the parts you bought and no longer want then you would be correct. Another horrible /. car analogy.

Re:Full refund (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29065713)

If you read the article then you will notice that it is not possible for him to buy a computer that can what he needs without windows on it.
He then picked the machine best for him, and then decline the EULA and was expected to get the refund.

Re:Full refund (1)

Desler (1608317) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065763)

If you read the article then you will notice that it is not possible for him to buy a computer that can what he needs without windows on it.

Boohoo. The computer manufacturers aren't obligated to sell him a computer in the way he wants it.

Re:Full refund (4, Informative)

Chyeld (713439) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066007)

Au Contraire, if you sell a product which has undisclosed terms refusing those terms should result in a refund. In order to use Microsoft Windows, you must accept their EULA. Unless you are claiming the Lenovo forced him to agree to the EULA prior to purchasing the computer, then those terms were undisclosed up to the point where he booted the computer and was presented with them.

Re:Full refund (1)

bws111 (1216812) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066137)

And if he doesn't like the product he purchased, he can return it for a full refund. But that is not what he is doing - he is trying to force the manufacturer to change the product to his liking, which they have no obligation to do.

Re:Full refund (1)

Darth Sdlavrot (1614139) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066319)

Manufacturers change products to match up with what their customers want all the time. When that happens we call that a "free market." It's not always fast though. Sometimes you have to not buy what they're selling -- maybe for a long time -- before they come around.

Re:Full refund (1, Informative)

Desler (1608317) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066153)

Au Contraire, if you sell a product which has undisclosed terms refusing those terms should result in a refund.

For the whole product, yes. Not piecemeal parts.

In order to use Microsoft Windows, you must accept their EULA. Unless you are claiming the Lenovo forced him to agree to the EULA prior to purchasing the computer, then those terms were undisclosed up to the point where he booted the computer and was presented with them.

Oh bullshit. He knew the terms before buying the product. To claim otherwise is just disingenuous. Secondly, the EULA doesn't state that the retailer of the product is obligated to refund the user's money for the Microsoft license.

Re:Full refund (2, Interesting)

Chyeld (713439) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066281)

Secondly, the EULA doesn't state that the retailer of the product is obligated to refund the user's money for the Microsoft license.

As you say, bullshit.

By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not
use the software. Instead, contact the manufacturer or installer to determine their
return policy for a refund or credit.

Re:Full refund (3, Insightful)

Sloppy (14984) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066077)

The computer manufacturers aren't obligated to sell him a computer in the way he wants it.

And the author of the EULA isn't obligated to offer a refund in the EULA. Lenovo isn't obligated to bundle that refund offer with their computer. But Microsoft and Lenovo did that. Somebody (whether you think it's Lenovo or Microsoft) TOLD the user, in writing, they can have their money back if they don't want Microsoft's crap.

They weren't obligated to sell him a computer the way he wants it, but then they said, "Ok, you can have it the way you want it, and here's our offer written in legalese." So, dude, are you really sure they're still not obligated to sell him a computer the way he wants it? He has a piece of paper that says they are, and he didn't write the words on that paper.

Re:Full refund (1)

Desler (1608317) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066121)

The EULA doesn't obligate Lenovo to refund him the money. The EULA even says that if the retailer doesn't give you a refund to conteact Microsoft or a regional Microsoft associate to see their refund terms.

Re:Full refund (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29066343)

Boohoo. The computer manufacturers aren't obligated to sell him a computer in the way he wants it.

Boohoo to you too. This is in the EU where we have some half-decent consumer laws, and MS, the convicted monopolist, is involved in setting the conditions under which Lenovo sell windows. The manufacturers may well be obligated to give him a refund. Maybe you don't agree with this. That has no relevance to whether they are or are not so obligated.

Re:Full refund (0)

purpledinoz (573045) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065717)

This is like buying a car, and saying that you don't use the radio, so you would like a refund for the radio. If you don't like Lenovo's package, then buy from a competitor. This is how competition works. If enough people demand this, then the companies will comply.

Re:Full refund (2, Insightful)

FudRucker (866063) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065771)

you can buy a car without a radio, or without air conditioning, but this is not a car so it is not the perfect analogy, PC makers should give customers what they want and if that includes selling desktops & laptops without windows or without any OS whatsoever on it then that is what they should do, microsoft does not own the OEMs (or do they?)...

Re:Full refund (2, Informative)

TheDarkMaster (1292526) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065993)

You don't need to pay the cost of air-conditioning if you choose to buy your car without then.

But with a new PC, you pay the Windows licence cost even you choose to not get the PC with then.

Terrible analogy (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29065871)

This is like buying a family sedan and saying you don't want the family they provided, as you've got your own.

It's a major part of the problem that Lenovo thinks they are selling me an operating system, and an even bigger problem that they think this is their "IP" and a value-add thing rather than just corrupt bundling.

Re:Full refund (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29065875)

Not really.

The EULA he declined specifically states: By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the software. Instead, return it to the retailer for a refund or credit.

Re:Full refund (2, Interesting)

Desler (1608317) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066185)

Yes, but it also says that if that retailer doesn't give you a refund to contact Microsoft or a Microsoft affiliate in the region to get their refund terms. The EULA only obligates Microsoft to refund the user's money not Lenovo.

Re:Full refund (4, Insightful)

Jiro (131519) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065921)

If the car came with an EULA saying that I could return the radio for a refund, I certainly would expect to be able to get a refund for the radio.

Especially... (1)

Rocketship Underpant (804162) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066515)

Especially if the radio had an EULA you were presented with *after* you bought the car, and the car wouldn't drive unless the radio was working.

Re:Full refund (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29065981)

This is like buying a car, and saying that you don't use the radio, so you would like a refund for the radio.

No, it's like buying a car, and some time later when you turn on the radio it reads out an interminable document full of legalese which ends with 'press button A to agree to be bound by these (post-sale) conditions (that are impossible to understand) or press button B to decline' so you press button B and the radio refuses to work, so you want a refund for the radio.

If Lenovo don't want to issue refunds post-sale they should get you to read and sign/agree to a copy of the Windows EULA at the point of sale and refuse the sale at that point if you don't agree. Why don't they do this?

Also, special rules should and do apply to Windows due to monopoly law considerations, which are not relevant in the car market.

Re:Full refund (1)

DaMattster (977781) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066001)

No, not at all. Industry hasn't colluded with the car manufacturers to force you into paying a higher price for a car without a radio. In the USA, some manufacturers charge extra for the "naked" PC. I've seen this with Dell, where the so-called open source version of their PC is actually priced higher thereby discouraging its purchase.

Re:Full refund (1)

Chyeld (713439) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066145)

Actually it's more like purchasing a car and upon putting the key in the ignition and attempting to start the car, you are presented with a legal document requiring you sign away a number of your rights concerning the car.

You can, if you have the know-how, remove the manufacturer provided starter and ignition system, and replace it with your own, and thus get it running without agreeing, but are then stuck with the cost of doing that along with the cost of the original system.

This of course, ignores the fact that in our analogy, the car is being made and sold by the same company and thus cost of the ignition system would be hard to separate from the cost of the rest of the car, where in reality the car is being assembled from off the shelf parts and the cost of the starter system they've chosen is simply being passed along to the consumer.

Re:Full refund (3, Interesting)

kc8tbe (772879) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065737)

Indeed, Lenovo has made it abundantly clear that they want to Microsoft whores. That's why, although I love my T61, I recently bought a Dell Latitude E6500 when I needed a new computer. Dell couldn't sell it in the configuration I wanted without Windows, but they gave me an $80 discount when I told them I'd be using Linux! It's a solid laptop, metal hinges and all -- good riddance, Lenovo!

Re:Full refund (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29065745)

Even better, don't purchase a laptop with Windows pre-installed if you have no intention of using it. Simple logic that even a child could comprehend, but instead this guy wants to be an ass in order to garner street cred from his BSD homies.

Re:Full refund (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29066375)

Congratulations on your purchase of a brand new nigger! If handled properly, your apeman will give years of valuable, if reluctant, service..

INSTALLING YOUR NIGGER.
You should install your nigger differently according to whether you have purchased the field or house model. Field niggers work best in a serial configuration, i.e. chained together. Chain your nigger to another nigger immediately after unpacking it, and don't even think about taking that chain off, ever. Many niggers start singing as soon as you put a chain on them. This habit can usually be thrashed out of them if nipped in the bud. House niggers work best as standalone units, but should be hobbled or hamstrung to prevent attempts at escape. At this stage, your nigger can also be given a name. Most owners use the same names over and over, since niggers become confused by too much data. Rufus, Rastus, Remus, Toby, Carslisle, Carlton, Hey-You!-Yes-you!, Yeller, Blackstar, and Sambo are all effective names for your new buck nigger. If your nigger is a ho, it should be called Latrelle, L'Tanya, or Jemima. Some owners call their nigger hoes Latrine for a joke. Pearl, Blossom, and Ivory are also righteous names for nigger hoes. These names go straight over your nigger's head, by the way.

CONFIGURING YOUR NIGGER
Owing to a design error, your nigger comes equipped with a tongue and vocal chords. Most niggers can master only a few basic human phrases with this apparatus - "muh dick" being the most popular. However, others make barking, yelping, yapping noises and appear to be in some pain, so you should probably call a vet and have him remove your nigger's tongue. Once de-tongued your nigger will be a lot happier - at least, you won't hear it complaining anywhere near as much. Niggers have nothing interesting to say, anyway. Many owners also castrate their niggers for health reasons (yours, mine, and that of women, not the nigger's). This is strongly recommended, and frankly, it's a mystery why this is not done on the boat

HOUSING YOUR NIGGER.
Your nigger can be accommodated in cages with stout iron bars. Make sure, however, that the bars are wide enough to push pieces of nigger food through. The rule of thumb is, four niggers per square yard of cage. So a fifteen foot by thirty foot nigger cage can accommodate two hundred niggers. You can site a nigger cage anywhere, even on soft ground. Don't worry about your nigger fashioning makeshift shovels out of odd pieces of wood and digging an escape tunnel under the bars of the cage. Niggers never invented the shovel before and they're not about to now. In any case, your nigger is certainly too lazy to attempt escape. As long as the free food holds out, your nigger is living better than it did in Africa, so it will stay put. Buck niggers and hoe niggers can be safely accommodated in the same cage, as bucks never attempt sex with black hoes.

FEEDING YOUR NIGGER.
Your Nigger likes fried chicken, corn bread, and watermelon. You should therefore give it none of these things because its lazy ass almost certainly doesn't deserve it. Instead, feed it on porridge with salt, and creek water. Your nigger will supplement its diet with whatever it finds in the fields, other niggers, etc. Experienced nigger owners sometimes push watermelon slices through the bars of the nigger cage at the end of the day as a treat, but only if all niggers have worked well and nothing has been stolen that day. Mike of the Old Ranch Plantation reports that this last one is a killer, since all niggers steal something almost every single day of their lives. He reports he doesn't have to spend much on free watermelon for his niggers as a result. You should never allow your nigger meal breaks while at work, since if it stops work for more than ten minutes it will need to be retrained. You would be surprised how long it takes to teach a nigger to pick cotton. You really would. Coffee beans? Don't ask. You have no idea.

MAKING YOUR NIGGER WORK.
Niggers are very, very averse to work of any kind. The nigger's most prominent anatomical feature, after all, its oversized buttocks, which have evolved to make it more comfortable for your nigger to sit around all day doing nothing for its entire life. Niggers are often good runners, too, to enable them to sprint quickly in the opposite direction if they see work heading their way. The solution to this is to *dupe* your nigger into working. After installation, encourage it towards the cotton field with blows of a wooden club, fence post, baseball bat, etc., and then tell it that all that cotton belongs to a white man, who won't be back until tomorrow. Your nigger will then frantically compete with the other field niggers to steal as much of that cotton as it can before the white man returns. At the end of the day, return your nigger to its cage and laugh at its stupidity, then repeat the same trick every day indefinitely. Your nigger comes equipped with the standard nigger IQ of 75 and a memory to match, so it will forget this trick overnight. Niggers can start work at around 5am. You should then return to bed and come back at around 10am. Your niggers can then work through until around 10pm or whenever the light fades.

ENTERTAINING YOUR NIGGER.
Your nigger enjoys play, like most animals, so you should play with it regularly. A happy smiling nigger works best. Games niggers enjoy include: 1) A good thrashing: every few days, take your nigger's pants down, hang it up by its heels, and have some of your other niggers thrash it with a club or whip. Your nigger will signal its intense enjoyment by shrieking and sobbing. 2) Lynch the nigger: niggers are cheap and there are millions more where yours came from. So every now and then, push the boat out a bit and lynch a nigger.

Lynchings are best done with a rope over the branch of a tree, and niggers just love to be lynched. It makes them feel special. Make your other niggers watch. They'll be so grateful, they'll work harder for a day or two (and then you can lynch another one). 3) Nigger dragging: Tie your nigger by one wrist to the tow bar on the back of suitable vehicle, then drive away at approximately 50mph. Your nigger's shrieks of enjoyment will be heard for miles. It will shriek until it falls apart. To prolong the fun for the nigger, do *NOT* drag him by his feet, as his head comes off too soon. This is painless for the nigger, but spoils the fun. Always wear a seatbelt and never exceed the speed limit. 4) Playing on the PNL: a variation on (2), except you can lynch your nigger out in the fields, thus saving work time. Niggers enjoy this game best if the PNL is operated by a man in a tall white hood. 5) Hunt the nigger: a variation of Hunt the Slipper, but played outdoors, with Dobermans. WARNING: do not let your Dobermans bite a nigger, as they are highly toxic.

DISPOSAL OF DEAD NIGGERS.
Niggers die on average at around 40, which some might say is 40 years too late, but there you go. Most people prefer their niggers dead, in fact. When yours dies, report the license number of the car that did the drive-by shooting of your nigger. The police will collect the nigger and dispose of it for you.

COMMON PROBLEMS WITH NIGGERS - MY NIGGER IS VERY AGGRESIVE
Have it put down, for god's sake. Who needs an uppity nigger? What are we, short of niggers or something?

MY NIGGER KEEPS RAPING WHITE WOMEN
They all do this. Shorten your nigger's chain so it can't reach any white women, and arm heavily any white women who might go near it.

WILL MY NIGGER ATTACK ME?
Not unless it outnumbers you 20 to 1, and even then, it's not likely. If niggers successfully overthrew their owners, they'd have to sort out their own food. This is probably why nigger uprisings were nonexistent (until some fool gave them rights).

MY NIGGER BITCHES ABOUT ITS "RIGHTS" AND "RACISM".
Yeah, well, it would. Tell it to shut the fuck up.

MY NIGGER'S HIDE IS A FUNNY COLOR. - WHAT IS THE CORRECT SHADE FOR A NIGGER?
A nigger's skin is actually more or less transparent. That brown color you can see is the shit your nigger is full of. This is why some models of nigger are sold as "The Shitskin".

MY NIGGER ACTS LIKE A NIGGER, BUT IS WHITE.
What you have there is a "wigger". Rough crowd. WOW!

IS THAT LIKE AN ALBINO? ARE THEY RARE?
They're as common as dog shit and about as valuable. In fact, one of them was President between 1992 and 2000. Put your wigger in a cage with a few hundred genuine niggers and you'll soon find it stops acting like a nigger. However, leave it in the cage and let the niggers dispose of it. The best thing for any wigger is a dose of TNB..

MY NIGGER SMELLS REALLY BAD
And you were expecting what?

SHOULD I STORE MY DEAD NIGGER?
When you came in here, did you see a sign that said "Dead nigger storage"? .That's because there ain't no goddamn sign..

It might be bad in denmark (2)

Vovk (1350125) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065621)

It's even worse in the US, where microsoft's influence runs deep. How did we ever get in this situation? Any history buffs wanna recount?

Re:It might be bad in denmark (1, Informative)

onefriedrice (1171917) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065869)

I believe Microsoft invented the idea of "licensing" software. They licensed DOS, which they bought from some other guy, to IBM and made bank. Such deals with IBM et al. allowed them to quickly dominate the relatively infant "PC" market, and the rest is history. They've been delivering abuse ever since.

Re:It might be bad in denmark (2, Informative)

LMacG (118321) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066379)

I'm pretty sure IBM was licensing software long before Microsoft existed, probably before Bill Gates existed. They also got in trouble with the government for bundling hardware and software, and were subject to a consent decree until 2001. Current PC manufacturers probably can get away with bundling because they're not producing both the hardware and software.

P.T.Barnum had it right (4, Funny)

Brett Buck (811747) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066183)

How did we ever get in this situation? Any history buffs wanna recount?

    No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.

Good luck with that... (2)

onionman (975962) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065637)

I wish him well on the lawsuit, but I won't hold my breath...

Whole product... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Cowar (1608865) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065667)

While i applaud companies that refund the microsoft tax, i do sort of see where lenovo is coming from. If i buy a car, i can't yank out the back seats and require a refund from the car dealer. It is true i could sell those seats for a profit on ebay, the original dealer would not be required to refund me the cost of the seats. In fact, it could be assumed that you pay $2000 for the laptop hardware and they throw in windows for free.

Should you be able to sue for not being able to arbitrarily get a refund on a part of a computer? What if you want to run thin clients that never touch the hard drive? Should you be able to refund the hard drive? Just because what you're trying to get rid of has no legal resale value doesn't mean you should be able to refund it, especially if Lenovo never included an itemized list.

You know what? I'm gonna sue the next laptop company i buy from because they won't refund the cost of the touch pad, I hate those things! More than most linux people hate microsoft, i'm talking like a seething, infuriating hatred. /sarcasm

What if you wrote software that included printer capabilities or SQL database access, would you refund someone who didn't want printer capabilities or SQL database access? Too bad lenovo isn't doing what sane people would do and try to work with the customer to come to something that works, but, if you don't like the back seats, either buy the whole care and remove em yourself, or don't buy the car.

Reason people! While microsoft's monopoly is bad, you shouldn't be sueing for a refund, sue for variety! And NO I didn't RTFA, so for all i know, the terms of the settlement may be "Sell blank slate laptops".

Re:Whole product... (5, Informative)

Galestar (1473827) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065709)

The Vista EULA specifically states: By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the software. Instead, return it to the retailer for a refund or credit. If you cannot obtain a refund there, contact Microsoft or the Microsoft affiliate serving your country for information about Microsoftâ(TM)s refund policies. He chose to not accept them.

Re:Whole product... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Cowar (1608865) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065741)

heh, so he never tried to contact microsoft or the microsoft affiliate? This is gonna be a short case.

Re:Whole product... (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065787)

But are EULAs binding?

Re:Whole product... (3, Insightful)

Galestar (1473827) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065909)

They are to Microsoft. And MS may have a contract with Lenovo that Lenovo has to honour that clause too.

Re:Whole product... (1)

mea37 (1201159) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066041)

While I personally find the basis for EULA to be questionable, my lawyer friends tell me that US courts have indeed held them to be binding.

The double-edged nature of this is exactly why Lenovo should give the guy a refund. The fact that the software trades under the EULA makes the claim that it's "part of the computer" or even "part of the same sale as the computer" suspect to me. The software industry has changed the nature of the "sale" for the software, and the courts (at least in the US) have let them get by with it; so retailers should have to live with the inconvenience of those terms just like end users (as they're a party to the modified "sale" as well).

That said, the EULA also acknowledges that you may be unable to get your refund from the retailer and gives you instructions to follow in that event. So while I think Lenovo should give the refund, I don't think they have to.

As another poster alluded, my other question is whether they offered him a full refund for the entire computer. If so, I'd say they're in the clear (but rather foolish) and that he'd do himself a favor to take the money and buy something else.

Re:Whole product... (1)

Hurricane78 (562437) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066481)

Not it Germany at least. Here, all click-trough-licenses, or package-seal-licenses are without legal meaning and can be ignored.

Re:Whole product... (1)

Desler (1608317) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065811)

But that EULA doesn't obligate Lenovo to give him a refund.

Re:Whole product... (1)

Galestar (1473827) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065951)

Quite correct. He may not win in court against Lenovo, and then will have to go against MS, but at least it brings into the public light the fact that people are legally entitled to a refund, no matter who it comes from. I would be curious to read the Windows 7 EULA to see what MS wrote this time around for when you don't want to accept the EULA.

Re:Whole product... (4, Interesting)

Sloppy (14984) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066295)

But that EULA doesn't obligate Lenovo to give him a refund.

That's a very common sense way of looking at it. And maybe it's even true, in Denmark.

Some people (and I hate them) think that users license software, instead of buying authorized copies, like they would buy a book. They say that title to the software never leaves the publisher. Ergo, when the computer was at Lenovo and Lenovo installed Windows on it, Lenovo didn't own a copy of that software either (Microsoft still owned it). So how did Lenovo legally do that? Why didn't Microsoft sue them for piracy? Maybe it's because there's a contract between Lenovo and Microsoft. And that contract says: if the end user doesn't want Windows, he gets a refund from Lenovo.

I think it's all bullshit, but such absurdities are the inevitable consequence of taking EULAs seriously. Microsoft and this user never met or did business in any way, so if there's somehow magically a contract between them, then something weird has to happen. Given that there's already something para-normal going on, it isn't any more of a stretch or leap of logic that Lenovo is involved too, especially since they did do business with both parties.

Re:Whole product... (1)

bws111 (1216812) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066399)

And since he bought 'the software' in the form of an image on a disk in a laptop, that is how he should return it to the retailer, and they will refund his money.

Re:Whole product... (1)

onefriedrice (1171917) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065749)

I think you are generally right, however I agree with the exception in this case only because Microsoft is a proven monopoly, and we need things like this to put them on a more even playing field.

Re:Whole product... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29065761)

If i buy a car, i can't yank out the back seats and require a refund from the car dealer.

Of course not, but by the same token you won't find a sticker on the back seats saying "even though you supposedly own this car, you're not allowed to use these seats unless you agere to the following conditions...".

The right to refuse and get a refund is the only vestige of any pretense that the EULA is a contract. Without that it should be cut and dried non-enforceable. If you own the machine, including the software (and the back seats) then you can go ahead and do with it whatever you please.

Re:Whole product... (5, Insightful)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065803)

Your analogies are missing something:

Your car seats are either produced by the company that made your car, or purchased and integrated by them. Windows is resold by the guys who sell you your laptop; but it requires you to agree to a EULA, between you and Microsoft, in order to use it(compare this to your BIOS, which is almost certainly made by Phoenix or Award, not Lenovo; but is integrated by Lenovo and not licenced separately). If your car seat required a separate licence in order for it to be used, you should be able to treat it as a separate part.

Same with your other examples. As long as MS insists on having a separate EULA between it and you, its product can't be considered an intrinsic part of Lenovo, or anybody else's machines. If they started licencing it the way BIOSes, firmware, and drivers are typically licenced, I'd give the notion that it was an intrinsic component more weight.

Yeah, but not sure it's the same .... (1)

King_TJ (85913) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065845)

Your car analogy works just fine, up to the point where I'm arguing that I'm owed a refund on parts of the computer HARDWARE I don't like or want to keep/use. (A refund because I dislike and don't use the touchpad? Same as complaining about back seats in a new car purchase, really.)

But THIS dispute pertains to the whole idea that a system manufacturer can pre-load another company's operating system SOFTWARE onto the computer (complete with legal agreements the end user has to click to accept as binding), and then tell you it was all really "one piece of equipment".

I don't think there's a fair comparison in the world of cars? But I guess if you wanted to force a car analogy to fit here, you'd be talking about something like buying a new Chevy, and the dealer including the "Complete Chevrolet Maintenance and Repair Guide" in the glovebox, and billing you an extra $125 or so for it on your invoice, as one of the line-item "features" on the vehicle. Would you think it was still reasonable to tell everyone to "Skip buying this Chevrolet, because it comes with this unnecessary repair guide!"? Or would you haggle with your salesperson to see if he/she could sell you the car without that book included?

Re:Yeah, but not sure it's the same .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29066189)

The software isn't like a car part you don't want. You can resell the car part on the open market - it's yours. The auto manufacturer isn't asking you to agree to further terms or get a refund, and aren't obligated to modify the terms of sale (refund you) after the sale.

The terms of the EULA state that you cannot install it on any other computer. If you did sell it (without authorization), the next person would be in the same boat - unable to accept the EULA either, and now on even weaker grounds since the original purchaser wasn't authorized to resell the software in the first place. They aren't the owner, only a licensee.

Re:Whole product... (1)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065847)

I can see the car thing-- it's also like buying a house and being required to accept the "standard" tile floors.

The builder will usually let you say, "I don't want you to put in a tile floor" and give you a credit for a few hundred bucks.

But the government doesn't usually get involved and force the builder to do this.

While I would like to see the lenovo get stuck emotionally, I'd say on principle that the best option is to leave them alone and let the market decide by buying from vendors who support blank hardware / alternate O/S options.

Re:Whole product... (1)

TheDarkMaster (1292526) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065883)

Is because a Windows licence costs a reasonable amount of money... Why you will pay $50 for one system you will not use? And on my country, you need to pay at least $100 ,or more, for the "onboard" Vista (more or less R$200 reais), is a lot of money.

Re:Whole product... (1)

Venkata Prasad (874420) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065923)

I know that a car dealer would not do that to me, but at the same time, he would not ask me to accept a EULA to use the steering wheel. Let Lenovo ask the user to accept the EULA before purchasing the computer and then I see your argument logical.

Re:Whole product... (2, Funny)

rehtonAesoohC (954490) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065927)

While microsoft's monopoly is bad, you shouldn't be sueing for a refund, sue for variety!

Ok!! I'll sue so that we can have:
Vista Home Basic
Vista Home Premium
Vista Business
Vista Enterprise
Vista Ultimate
Vista Super Ultimate
Vista Bloodsport
Vista: Ballmer vs. Gates
Vista: Is Windows

Wait a second...

Re:Whole product... (5, Insightful)

iCEBaLM (34905) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065969)

While i applaud companies that refund the microsoft tax, i do sort of see where lenovo is coming from. If i buy a car, i can't yank out the back seats and require a refund from the car dealer.

Unless they sell you the car, but stipulate that only persons aged between 19 and 20 can use the back seats, and only for approved uses. They inform you that use of the back seats is monitored and non-personally identifiable data may be sold, in aggregate to third parties. Ownership of the back seats may not be transferred so that when you sell the car the new owner must install his own back seats. Even though there are two seats, only one person may use the seats at one time. The seats will from time to time check with the manufacturer to make sure they are installed in the same car as you purchased, and if a discrepancy is found, they will not allow anyone to sit in them. They then inform you that if you don't like these terms, you can CHOOSE TO RETURN THE BACK SEATS FOR A REFUND.

The license agreement specifically states that if you do not agree with the EULA you can return it for a refund. Computer makers know this. Computer makers license it from Microsoft that way. Computer makers have to abide by it.

Re:Whole product... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29066381)

Insightful, as there is no Witty (Insightful/Funny) Mod. Yet, there is Insightful, Informative and Interesting. And most things Informative are Interesting... And Insightful would be Informative?

Re:Whole product... (1)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066049)

i buy a car, i can't yank out the back seats and require a refund from the car dealer. It is true i could sell those seats for a profit on ebay

Try to sell your copy of Windows on eBay.

it could be assumed that you pay $2000 for the laptop hardware and they throw in windows for free.

That's like saying Ford throws the steering wheel in for free. The OS has a cost, which is factored into the price of the computer. When the TV pitchman says "...and we'll throw in this other gizmo for FREE!" it's simply marketing bullshit.

I agree that there should be some choice in a computer's OS, including no OS at all.

Re:Whole product... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29066061)

It's the unfortunate side effect of the laptop - you cannot build it yourself as you can a desktop. Until you are able to build your own laptop you are forced to pay the Microsoft tax. This is the only way out of the "you'll get Windows and you'll like it" catch-22 if you buy a PC laptop.

Re:Whole product... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29066293)

I love those car examples:

> If i buy a car, i can't yank out the back seats and require a refund from the
> car dealer. It is true i could sell those seats for a profit on ebay, the
> original dealer would not be required to refund me the cost of the seats.

Imagine you bought the car and if you want to open the rear doors a sign says: "If you want to use the rear seats, you have to agree being bound by the the following..(insert lots of lawyer speak). If you choose not to agree, do not open the rear doors and contact your car dealer for a refund."

Go PHK! (0)

DaMattster (977781) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065669)

As an ardent FreeBSD user, I cheer PHK's move. In the EULA, Microsoft claims that denying the license is grounds for a refund. Lenovo is just being a little bitch and they'll most likely lose.

Re:Go PHK! (1)

ILongForDarkness (1134931) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065965)

First: the dude has to contact MS, if the retailer doesn't refund then they are supposed to work it out with MS directly. Not sure what MS does in that case, I'm guessing they have policies with the OEM and it becomes more of a "you honor the refund policy or we jack your license cost/stop selling to you".

Second: he probably will be upset when he gets the refund. The amount the suit is for (1000K ~ $140US) I was able to find a license of Vista Premium retail. OEM version would be more like $20-30 I'd expect: especially for a large customer like Lenovo. It kind of reminds me back in the day asking to remove a floppy drive from a computer as I already had a CD writer and secondary CD player in the system. The vendor offered a $5 discount for the system without the floppy. I said to hell with it I probably can get $5 worth of use out of the sucker (this was 98). The combination of the fact that the vendor gets stuff really cheaply and the hassle factor of doing custom systems means that you don't get much when you go non-standard.

Re:Go PHK! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29066453)

I can guarantee you that he's doing this for the principle - not for the money.

Re:Go PHK! (1)

gr8_phk (621180) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065979)

This is just fun.

Those BSD guys! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29065697)

They'll do anything to bring attention to themselves! Gotta prove that BSD isn't dead, you know.

apple tax ? (0)

po134 (1324751) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065779)

By the same logic I could sue apple for the apple tax on the G5, the iMac, my iphone, ... it doesn't make sense at all and only in the EU could you see something like that :)

not quite... (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29065925)

There is not a EULA when starting OS X on a new machine which says 'if you do not agree, you may get a refund of OS X'.

Re:apple tax ? (1)

onefriedrice (1171917) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065931)

It goes back to the whole "Microsoft is a monopoly" thing. Apple certainly is not a monopoly in the PC industry. Different rules apply.

Re:apple tax ? (1)

rainer_d (115765) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065985)

This is true, but I guess Apple doesn't offer a refund in the EULA.
Is it just an urban legend that the EULA states that basically Windows can be given back for a refund?
Apple will surely not make that mistake.
If Lenovo would have wanted to sell their laptops as "systems" they would have had to ask MSFT for a Windows OEM version without that specific clause. Than, such a complaint as PHKs would be much more difficult to make in the first place.
I'm sure that's all legal somehow - but I'm equally sure it's not legal to declare one thing somewhere in a "contract" and later on say "oh, you know, we didn't really mean it to work like that".
PHK probably *did* print out the EULA and gave it to his lawyer before going to court with it. Something I doubt anybody from Lenovo has actually done.

Re:apple tax ? (1)

po134 (1324751) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066279)

well the thing is Microsoft doesn't distinguish between an OS bought retail in a shop and the one already on your computer, they both have the same EULA, apple should do the same, in fact they do:

IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE, DO NOT USE THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THE LICENSE, YOU MAY RETURN THE APPLE SOFTWARE TO THE PLACE WHERE YOU OBTAINED IT FOR A REFUND. IF THE APPLE SOFTWARE WAS ACCESSED ELECTRONICALLY, CLICK "DISAGREE/DECLINE". FOR APPLE SOFTWARE INCLUDED WITH YOUR PURCHASE OF HARDWARE, YOU MUST RETURN THE ENTIRE HARDWARE/SOFTWARE PACKAGE IN ORDER TO OBTAIN A REFUND.

I don't see the logic that "I don't want a part of what I bought" applied to microsoft just because it's a monopoly especially when the choice is not the problem, but the lack of refund (which the constructor choose to charge you for, it's part of the deal !).

I don't want to see this case become jurisprudence as it will only lead to lots of trouble in the computer industry when both big companies have policies in place to refund if needed :/

Re:apple tax ? (1)

DaMattster (977781) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066195)

[quote]By the same logic I could sue apple for the apple tax on the G5, the iMac, my iphone, ... it doesn't make sense at all and only in the EU could you see something like that :)[\quote]

That is quite a bit different. With Apple, the MacOS is essentially the engine that drives the platform. People purchase the Macintosh for the MacOS. Not everyone buys a PC for Windows. People buy it to run Linux, BSD, or Solaris.

Obvious outcome (0)

Norsefire (1494323) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065813)

It's plain as day who is right here, it's ... er ... the guy that ... oh ... um ... ahh ...

GUYS!? It's BSD vs Microsoft, whose side are we on?

Does it realy matter? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29065863)

It's been a long time since I had my business law class and I'm sure there must be an IAAL here now...

Anyway...First of all, you paid for the laptop. They have your money and then they throw the EULA under your nose. I can't remember the legal term, but because they have your money doesn't that invalidate the agreement?

Second, I don't know of any retailer that will give you a refund on a computer for any reason even if it's defective. You have to exchange it for another one - at best. So, in effect, you have to click on the EULA to have a usable product that you've already paid for - in other words (again I can't remember the legal term) since you have no choice or alternatives to agreeing to the EULA, it's not worth the electrons that display it.

So, doesn't that mean MS' EULAs are completely worthless is this case?

Why are company even doing this at all? (0, Redundant)

ShatteredGlass (1003584) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065867)

We don't do this with any other product, why should we with PCs? If you don't like the GoodYear tires on your car, you don't go up to them asking for a refund for just the tires.

Re:Why are company even doing this at all? (1)

Jiro (131519) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066003)

Again: the reason that you can't demand a refund for the Goodyear tires on your car is that the car doesn't come with a piece of paper saying that you can return the Goodyear tires for a refund. If the car came with a statement that you could return the Goodyear tires for a refund, then it would be completely legitimate to demand one. It says you're entitled to the refund.

Re:Why are company even doing this at all? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29066159)

I wasn't required to agree to a licence with GoodYear specifically to use my car's tires.

Re:Why are company even doing this at all? (1)

guruevi (827432) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066205)

With tires you can indeed do that. If you prefer eg. Yokohama tires instead of Goodyear and your Goodyear tires are new or have a certain amount of thread remaining they will refund you an amount of money depending on the amount of thread you have left.

To go with your car analogy, Windows is like an option you didn't ask for on a new car. If the dealer puts the option on and charges you for it anyway by either burying it under some other charges, increasing the price of the car or putting in a part that requires a lot of maintenance for 'free' (some chummy dealers actually do any or all of the above), you can still ask for a refund for that particular option since you a) didn't order it and b) don't want to be paying maintenance on that option.

Windows is an options that costs money and costs maintenance (malware, virus scanners and reinstalls), the laptop manufacturer doesn't get it for free nor does Windows come standard with the computer (since you have to agree to a separate EULA). However the manufacturers just bury it in the rest of the costs and give it for 'free'.

EULA (2, Informative)

abigsmurf (919188) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065937)

I know the EULA states you can get a refund if you don't agree to the terms however, that still doesn't mean Lenevo have to give you the laptop sans windows at a cheaper rate. They can simply say "you don't won't to pay for windows? Fine, send us the laptop and we'll refund what you paid for it".

Re:EULA (1)

DaMattster (977781) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066267)

That would be a piss poor business decision on Lenovo's part to demand a refund for the entire unit. In doing so, they lose the entire sale. Wouldn't they be better off by simply refunding something like 100.00 and not losing the sale entirely? It's not like a car and an engine where the car company would endure a cost hardship by removing the engine. In this case the OS "engine," is being removed and replaced at the consumer's expense.

Re:EULA (1)

abigsmurf (919188) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066443)

Laptops are an incredibly competitive market. May be better for them to take a handful of lost sales on the chin than risk a few thousand people asking for this kind of refund.

It's also possible that not installing the OS messes around with their production line but I suppose it depends on if Lenevo laptops are built to order or not.

True cost of windows? (5, Insightful)

TinBromide (921574) | more than 4 years ago | (#29065959)

I wouldn't be surprised if lenovo paid something low as in $5 per license of windows when everything was said and done, and then recouped the cost of the license with bloatware. This guy would be miffed to get a $5 check and microsoft would be miffed to have their B2B cost revealed to be a tiny tiny fraction of what they gut consumers for.

Re:True cost of windows? (1)

Rou7_beh (1528491) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066069)

This case has already been judged in France. You are acually entitled to the full retail price of all programs installed on your pc. Of course the refund policies never refund this much. You have to go to court to get it.

How Much? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29066033)

With the deals Microsoft has with each manufacturer, that "Microsoft Tax" probably doesn't amount to much money. Anybody has any knowledge of how much manufacturers pay for each Windows license?

In Germany, Lenovo does refund... maybe (2, Interesting)

Conley Index (957833) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066091)

According to some story circulating the net ( http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/topic/wo-kaufe-ich-ein-notebook-mit-linux-13-herste/2/ [ubuntuusers.de] ), the Lenovo hotline in Germany denies that it is possible, but if you talk to a certain person at Lenovo, you will get a refund of 30 Euros for your Windows license.

I have not tried myself, maybe for my next laptop...

Choices (5, Interesting)

mwoliver (688853) | more than 4 years ago | (#29066269)

Guys, I have used FreeBSD for a decade on multiple machines, some running CURRENT, and thus have had the privilege of not only listening to PHK's reasoned discussions, but also engaging in such discussions with him. I also supported his paid development project a few years ago, so you can be sure that I am *not* an unbiased contributor to this article.

That said, I am pretty sure that PHK didn't just decide over coffee or beer to sue Lenovo without giving the matter serious thought, research and consideration. Certainly, what MS charges OEMs and distributors for licenses is far less than the retail price you or I would pay, so I don't personally think that money is the issue at all. I haven't asked him personally so can't say with authority, but I would imagine that this is more about OS choice (or none) during the configure/customize process when shopping online and opting out of a MS OS up-front rather than any monetary settlement. It's the principle of the issue, not the money. At least that's how I see it and how I would like to see the outcome. Give consumers a choice to opt out of a forced MS OS, even if there is no financial benefit.

Lenovo sells Thinkpads without OS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#29066325)

...at least if you're a student. Have a look at Lenovo Campus.

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