EU Funding "Orwellian" Artificial Intelligence Snooping System 181
leonbenjamin writes "Britain's Telegraph reports on a five-year research programme, called Project Indect, which aims to develop computer programmes which act as 'agents' to monitor and process information from web sites, discussion forums, file servers, peer-to-peer networks and even individual computers. Its main objectives include the 'automatic detection of threats and abnormal behaviour or violence.' Shami Chakrabarti, head of the UK's Liberty human-rights NGO, said: 'Profiling whole populations instead of monitoring individual suspects is a sinister step in any society. ... It's dangerous enough at national level, but on a Europe-wide scale the idea becomes positively chilling.'"
Haven't we been here before? (Score:3, Informative)
CARNIVORE anyone?
Re:Haven't we been here before? (Score:5, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_(software) [wikipedia.org]
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Total Information Awareness [wikipedia.org]
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I've been trying to tell you this for years, and NOW you care? (see sig)
You have to remember that this is the government we're talking about here. There's so much infighting and beaurocracy that by the time they find out what's going to happen, CNN is already showing the footage on a 24/7 loop.
I'm Glad it's the Europeans. Seriously. (Score:5, Funny)
...because you know their State Police will have really cool uniforms. They'll be, like, all shiny medals and epaulets and swagger sticks and motorcycle sidecars and they'll put their surveillance cams in hovering dirigibles and what not, all trim ex-military guys. If I'm going to be cracked across the back of the neck for not showing my papers, I want to be cracked by a guy with some style. Obama goons will be all business casual, in new, pressed, grandma jeans and open-collar shirts and sneakers, driving around in non-descript cars, all mouth-breathing ex-IRS guys.
Yup, it's European Fascism for me, for sure.
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Well if you like style in your fascism -- and your sense of style is synonymous with "blindingly gaudy" -- then you need look no further than our neighbor to the south.
Brown Shirts? Black Shirts? Bah! GOLD [wikipedia.org] Shirts is where it's at!
Mexican Fascism -- because dystopia doesn't have to look dark and depressing.
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They'll be, like, all shiny medals and epaulets and swagger sticks
Can we shorten the latter to "swasticks".
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It's true. The SS uniforms were designed by Hugo Boss himself. The Nazi's were evil, fanatical and genocidal, but they looked sharp while they were doing it. It wasn't just coincidence. Part of the Nazi's whole propaganda effort was that they looked the part of the leaders of a master race. Couple this with the Nazi mass parades and propaganda rallies, and you have a very persuasive and intimidating regime. Even the Hitler youth, a compulsory organisation for all young boys, had their own tailored uniform.
T
Re:I'm Glad it's the Europeans. Seriously. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is why I never buy arguments about why dressing well is so important.
Odd, this seems to prove that dressing is important.
'automatic detection of ... abnormal behavior' (Score:2, Insightful)
Next up: thought police.
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That would make anyone cringe unless you are the scum of the world.
Expecting a -1 very soon.
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Therefore, anyone who'd voluntarily think of them must be the scum of the world and very likely deserving of arrest.
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...unless you are the scum of the world...
You do realize that we are talking about governments here, yes?
The people who tell you that stealing is wrong... because they don't like competition. Those would be them, yes.
I refuse to believe any of this (Score:3, Funny)
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We have those already. There is a crime of "inciting racial hatred" here in the UK. Essentially, if you say something and someone decides you might "incite" someone to hate a person based on race, you can be arrested and prosecuted.
Is this program already posting to slashdot? (Score:5, Funny)
Abnormal behavior (Score:5, Insightful)
"Abnormal behavior"... You know, like disagreeing with the government about what the definition of that may be.
Re:Abnormal behavior (Score:5, Interesting)
"Abnormal behavior"... You know, like disagreeing with the government about what the definition of that may be.
Not to mention this is the EU we're talking about: a place with 23 different official languages. With this kind of diversity, there's probably nothing that can be classified as "abnormal".
Non-EU example: In the Netherlands, the Gay Pride is a cultural event. In Serbia, protesters beat the shit out of them. In Moscow, the police did. Which one of these is normal, and to whom?
Teabaggers and such are abnormal too (Score:3, Interesting)
because no one is unhappy enough with Government to protest it.
Face it, those in power are loathe to give it up or admit abuse, it is far easier through the use of courts and the press to label those who do disagree as having mental issues, whether it is anger or the expected and currently in vogue "racism".
I thought eight years under Bush were bad with fear mongering, but the new gang has improved on it. The sad part is, both sides of the Atlantic seem adept at adapting the very worse privacy rights viola
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The US is getting Britain's camera system and you get our Intellectual rights system... who came up with this new one?
Pick something the US and the Brits can agree on... Blame the French.
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Flawed (Score:2)
Your example is flawed.
The Netherlands clearly illustrates what is *normal* for EU countries. Or did you forget that the Netherlands *is* a member of the EU?
Serbia and Russia are both Slavic non-EU countries with a bit of anti-gay attitudes in general.
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The Netherlands clearly illustrates what is *normal* for EU countries.
Is Hungary [bbc.co.uk] EU enough for you? Also note that there is a significant difference between being anti-gay and being anti-parade. Most people I know don't care one bit what hole you want to shove it in, but they get pissed when you force them to think about it and block main roads in a city with heavy traffic problems.
Different countries have different cultures, and that's not a bad thing. You just need to stop judging everyone on Earth based on your society.
Absurd Reasoning (Score:2)
Juri, I'm not American, I'm from Norway.
Heck, I have Russian ancestors and I've have been back to St. Petersburg to explore them. I have also been to Serbia and Hungary. In fact I have traveled all of Europe and parts of Asia.
Magyarorszag is a bad example. The far right movement you linked to is extremist, you have your own in Russia too. The people of Hungary are very liberal compared with large groups of Russians and Serbs. I know people from both cultures. I have friends in Hungary too, not just in Buda
Re:Absurd Reasoning (Score:4, Interesting)
And are you serious? People don't get that upset about traffic problems!
You clearly never lived in Budapest.
And who is forcing them to watch it? Your claims are absurd! I don't want to see gay people dance, and I haven't because I DON'T go to the parade in Oslo!
You're still judging out of context. For you, it's gay people dancing, and if you don't go, you don't really need to acknowledge their existence. Here, it instantly became a political event, with pressure from the liberals to push it through and threats from the far-right. It was all over the news for four days straight. You went to work and people talked about it. You went to the pub and people talked about it. There was literally no way you could avoid the topic without retreating from society until the hype is over.
It's also a question of external cultural influence. Ever heard the phrase "Hungarians celebrate crying"? There are no Hungarian holidays where we dance around on the street. We have no reason for it: from 1526 to 1989 our country has been either torn apart or under occupation. Our national holidays are about failed revolutions, failed fights for our freedom, and the execution of our leaders. Any public celebration that involves dancing around is basically a slap in the face to those of us who value our cultural identity.
I don't expect you to understand it, but please, try to look at the context before jumping to conclusions.
probably nothing that can be classified (Score:2)
With this kind of diversity, there's probably nothing that can be classified as "abnormal"
Or, everything will be, and tagged for later review.
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Answer: All three.
It's not about spotting people about to commit a crime, it's about knowing what everyone is doing all the time. The police like to know when people are holding any kind of event, and in fact you are already supposed to inform the police of any planned protests and get approval for them.
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Not to mention this is the EU we're talking about: a place with 23 different official languages. With this kind of diversity, there's probably nothing that can be classified as "abnormal".
Nothing ... or everything?
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Because it is one thing to flag a massive, scattered chink of your population as potential terrorists, but quite another to say that the entire population of $city are terrorists and you want the local police (who are also apparently mostly terrorists) to arrest them. At that point, the local authorities just say "fuck this shit" and ignore it, making the system completely useless.
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Its main objectives include the 'automatic detection of threats and abnormal behaviour or violence.
Shit, if it ever runs across any of my slashdot journals I'll be in deep trouble. I guess I'd better not visit Britain!
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Perhaps, but in America it will be called a "Patriotic Artificial Intelligence System (PAIS)." And, hey, with an acronym like that, maybe we can overtly sell the service south of the border!
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Correction, it will be called "Patriotic Artificial Intelligence Network (PAIN)".
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No. It will be Called Justice Engineering SUrveillance System, or JESUS for short. It will be passed in a near unanimous vote, because nobody will want to vote against JESUS. This will also allow them to deploy the system wherever they want, because we all want to bring JESUS into our schools, public libraries, and businesses.
Of course, nobody will deploy it in Church because that is a separation of church and state issue.
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No. It will be called the Justice Engineering SUrveillance System, or JESUS. And it will pass almost unanymously, because nobody wants to vote against JESUS. This will also help deploy the system, because we all know that we need JESUS in our schools, our public buildings, and our street corners.
But it will not be deployed in businesses, because that's socialism, and we won't have JESUS in churches, because that would be a separation of church and state issue.
Just another building block ... (Score:4, Insightful)
CC.
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Violence may very well be on the increase as technology eliminates more and more jobs. Add to that the flooding of coastal areas that will create all kinds of economic havoc as well as too much pressure from rising world populations and we may be in for a hell trip.
All your base... (Score:3, Insightful)
Ignorance is strength,
War is peace,
Freedom is slavery.
All your base are belong to us.
Updated for The New America (Score:2, Interesting)
Ignorance is Strength.
War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Religion is Science.
Government is Industry.
Poverty is Wealth.
Morality is Relative.
Obligatory... (Score:2)
Sounds perfect to me... (Score:3, Insightful)
A five-year research programme, called Project Indect, aims to develop computer programmes which act as "agents" to monitor and process information from web sites, discussion forums, file servers, peer-to-peer networks and even individual computers
Fantastic, so after you are done rounding up all the teenagers posting with attitude and skinheads, how is this system going to help find competent threats?
Sure this will foil your low level moronic so called terrorist that happens to be down on his luck and just wants a group to blame for his own problems in life. However, I do not see this system giving any insight to groups that are smart enough to not say things on open systems or that are completely offline.
Re:Sounds perfect to me... (Score:5, Insightful)
There was a case here a few days ago, where some teenagers who wrote in their diaries some fantasy story about blowing up their school were arrested and held in jail for some months and then tried as terrorists. Luckily they got a jury trial: the jury acquitted them straight away, and then took the trouble to wait outside the court to congratulate them on their release.
The next step for the authorities will have to be to abolish jury trials for terrorist offenses.
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The next step for the authorities will have to be to abolish jury trials for terrorist offenses.
Half the people around here think that would be a great idea. They bemoan all of the pitfalls of the jury system but fail to see the problems with the alternative that allows the government to strip you of your freedom without the consent of your fellow citizens.
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allows the government to strip you of your freedom without the consent of your fellow citizens.
Erm. Why is the "consent" of your fellow citizens needed? Laws - in any democratic country - are crafted by people who have been democratically selected to represent the people. If someone breaks these laws he/she deserves a punishment. However, wether or not he indeed commited the crime he is acused of is not a matter of oppinion. Why should it be open for a vote? There either is or is not enough evidence to condemn the man, and people who have been given the proper training in lgeal issues (ie. judges and
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The most suspicious man in the world... (Score:5, Funny)
I'm not always under electronic surveillance, but when I am, I drink Dos Equis.
Stay thirsty my friends.
A litiginous society leads to 1984 (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the single biggest threat to our freedom as individuals: the desire of the state to form a broad security apparatus, in order to protect itself from lawsuits filed by aggrieved citizens.
I don't believe there's some super-secret cabal out to restrict our freedoms and turn us all into mindless meme-spouting "Citizens" living in a modern-day panopticon. What this is, is the result of an ill-informed populace, fearful of terrorists, criminals, and anything/everything that could possibly disrupt their lives demanding that their leadership Do Something . So the government is placed in the impossible position of trying to predict potential future attacks/assaults/cataclysms, because a clear majority of its constituents has told it that this is necessary. And when they fail, the survivors/aggrieved parties file lawsuits because clearly the government has failed in its duties to predict and prevent bad things from happening to its people.
So now we have entities like the TSA in the US, which exists solely as a giant resource-sucking time waster of a stop-gap prevention against class action lawsuits against the government in case another 9/11 type attack occurs. That is all it is: an insurance policy the government has taken out against the possible threat of legal action from its citizens should the unthinkable occurs. We all know that the TSA isn't going to stop terrorists - it's so the government can say "See, we did everything we could to prevent it and it still happened". And in this case, I'm going to step into the blame game and blame US, not the government. I have Karma to burn, so here goes: the vast majority of us citizens, regardless of country, want security and safety - NOT freedom. We want to know that when we get into our cars and go to work, we are insulated from the random elements of chaos that make up the world we live in. And when that protective bubble gets popped, we get angry because by God/FSM/Entropy/Satan, we want our security! And so we sue our government because 'THEY' should have been able to stop it with all their resources and manpower. And our government finds itself having to establish all these 'safeguards' simply so we can regain some measure of belief in the illusion of security we demand the government provide us.
I'm no libertarian, but this is one case in which I agree with their ethos: leave us the hell alone and don't build a nanny/father state to protect us. Yes, it's scary to live in a world in which anything could happen, but the alternative to me is unthinkable: some faceless entity doing everything it can to remove risk from my life and give me the illusion of control/safety, because most of my fellow citizens want that. I'd rather face up to my limitations and fallacies on my own, thank-you-very-much; I don't need my issues with needing control to be enabled.
So before we go into another round of 'how much blame can we heap on the government', let's think for a moment that the government is nothing more than a reflection of its people, and their values.
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So before we go into another round of 'how much blame can we heap on the government', let's think for a moment that the government is nothing more than a reflection of a very noisy and ill-informed subset of the politicians, and their values.
Fixed that for ya.
Unfix that, bubba (Score:2)
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Who do you think elected said very noisy and ill-informed subset of the politicians? It wasn't a bunch of thoughtful, sober, rational individual citizens who acted in concert to promote harmonious civil discourse, now was it?
Oh, it's even better than that, once the appropriate NGO's get the right sanctions and treaties passed in the UN you won't even have to worry about such quaint things like constitutional rights, since our life time appointed SCOTUS justices will look at how other(possibly less democrat
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I'd like to add that this reminds me of the problem prisoners have when they are finally released after a long prison stay. Often times they cannot handle the freedom and lack of structure in the real world. Unfortunately the vast majority of humans essentially feel the same way.
Freedom is scary, and dangerous. People can't deal with that.
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The next time you read "tort reform" FUD about how Everyone In America is abusing civil litigation and Plaintiffs' Attorneys Like Myself Are Abetting Them, consider the source. P.S. The source is liability-insurance companies.
Did not know that (Score:2)
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It won't take that long to embarrass somebody (Score:4, Interesting)
At some point, some government official will either be exposed to be pervert or some such, or will be wrongfully and horribly flagged as some sort of terrorist.
In fact, I'm willing to bet the European hacker community will take steps to ensure that such a thing happens. As soon as it does, there will be all sorts of running about to cripple the system to the point that it's inert, but oddly still very expensive.
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You mean like when Teddy Kennedy, a US Senator, was put on the no-fly list in the US? The only t
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However, even if I accept your analogy, the Kennedy fiasco did start down the path of neutering the no-fly list to the
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"When "foolproof" systems make a lot of noise on prominent people, those systems are "put under review", which basically results in crippling them to the point of uselessness to the tune of millions of dollars (or GBP, in this case). "
You missed my point entirely. When prominent people get fingered by an automated system, they are not going to "put it under review" or cripple it - they simply get the maintainers of the system to slip in an exception list and a conditional that says "If one of these people'
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At some point, some government official will either be exposed to be pervert or some such,
Makes no difference, they'll just get a tap on thw wrist, resign for a little while and then, when all the fuss has died down (a year or two later) be brought back into government.
For example the british attorney general has just been found guilty of employing an illegal immigrant - contrary to a law that she wrote. So far there's little pressure on her to resign (even though she's been found guilty and paid a £5000 fine).
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At some point, some government official will either be exposed to be pervert or some such, or will be wrongfully and horribly flagged as some sort of terrorist.
In fact, I'm willing to bet the European hacker community will take steps to ensure that such a thing happens. As soon as it does, there will be all sorts of running about to cripple the system to the point that it's inert, but oddly still very expensive.
As for the "flagged as a terrorist" thing, that's why we have exceptions. The unfortunate part is that, instead of looking at the exception and saying "Holy crap, what would have happened to this guy, if he had been a nobody", we just make an exception, and sweep the entire issue under the rug.
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At some point, some government official will either be exposed to be pervert or some such, or will be wrongfully and horribly flagged as some sort of terrorist.
On the brighter side, with this extensive a surveillance system we'll finally be able to start to track down and enumerate all the women that Silvio Berlusconi has been cheating on his wife with. (Though to be fair, a good approximation would be to start with the full collection of phone books for Italy...)
Remember. (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember, remember the Fifth of November,
The Gunpowder Treason and Plot,
I know of no reason
Why the Gunpowder Treason
Should ever be forgot.
Guy Fawkes, Guy Fawkes, t'was his intent
To blow up the King and Parli'ment.
Three-score barrels of powder below
To prove old England's overthrow;
By God's providence he was catch'd (or by God's mercy*)
With a dark lantern and burning match.
Holloa boys, holloa boys, let the bells ring. (Holla*)
Holloa boys, holloa boys, God save the King!
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-Harry Nielson, Son of Schmilson
Guys, guys, guys. (Score:2, Insightful)
This is what will happen: millions of Pounds Euros, or Dollars will be spent on proof of concept, maybe even some code and who knows, a delivered system. One way or another, it will turn into a complete failure and abandoned or drastically scaled down.
This is Government and their contractors who w
The STASI is dead! Long live the new STASI (Score:5, Insightful)
How long will it take until Europe realizes that they aren't "One" country with one set of beliefs and standards and just get on with life? Will Europe now be reduced to an East German-like existence? Will one-half of the populace spy and inform on the other half? When will they begin collecting "scent" samples of all the population? Or will they choose DNA this time? Decisions, decisions.
Listen, it's time to give big government the bum's rush to the garbage tip. The sooner governments are beaten back down, the sooner normal people will be able to get on with their lives without fearing being sent to prison or being fined and taxed into penury.
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big government the bum's rush to the garbage tip.
given that of the 100 biggest economies, 51 are corporations, what about big corporations ?
What "One" Country? (Score:2)
Actually, no European feels "European" first, or thinks it's one country, only Americans seem to think Europe is a country!
The EU is also not synonymous with Europe, it only counts 27 out of 49 countries in Europe as members. You have to be clueless to claim Europeans think of themselves as Europeans, EU citizens or citizens of one country.
We actually like our "big" governments, they keep things working and safe. If you don't believe me my European country has barely noticed the so called "financial crisis"
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Perhaps your European country has barely noticed economic problems but my family, which live primarily in Portugal and France are constantly complaining. The government is always screwing them over and ignores the will of the people, job market sucks, they're taxed too heavily but the benefits they receive in return are crap and are constantly being trimmed back.
Two examples specifically about healthcare since that's the big thing currently being argued: One of my uncles in France got private health insuran
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I agree, we have the same problem in the UK these days. The NHS isn't covering everything we need because it seems to be moving towards privatisation (aka 'healthcare for the rich') like you have in the US. Before this shabby stat
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I don't imagine that the average person does think of there being "European." But that is what EU is going to change as you all are forced to follow rules and regulations and laws set forth by the EU.
The EU sounded like a nice idea in the beginning, but seems to have turned into an ogre when no one was watching it.
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Sieg Heil!
I-Spy with my little eye.... (Score:2)
---BEGIN PGP---
fioweurhtwporeughapewoirtq[iortgegert34530t8
---END PGP---
System response: Operator, this person is using encryption.
As usual, money well spent by the corrupt idiots in the EUSSR.
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System response: Operator, this person is using encryption without a licensed key per the Friendly Government Big Brother Act of 2010, Section VI, Paragraph 5. Please allocate manual surveillance of subject. Expected to be armed and dangerous.
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---BEGIN PGP--- fioweurhtwporeughapewoirtq[iortgegert34530t8 ---END PGP---
System response: Operator, this person is using encryption.
As usual, money well spent by the corrupt idiots in the EUSASR.
There, fixed that for you ;)
Agents (Score:2)
That's already been done before [youtube.com].
Sounds scarier then it is. (Score:2)
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Excerpt (Score:2, Informative)
Ghost in the Shell (Score:2)
Great news! (Score:2)
The original poster has no clue what this really means. Having such a project funded by the FP7 Framework Programme is the only sure way to discredit the whole idea. Have you ever heard of an FP6 or FP7 funded project that produced anything useful?
Scientific Tyranny (Score:2)
This is just one more piece of the scientific tyranny being built all around us on a global scale.
Verichip, PLDs, RFID enabled passports, wholesale monitoring of all electronic communications, corporate media propagandists shaping public opinion using advances in sociology and psychology, government takeover of education in order to indoctrinate unsuspecting youth, big pharma and the plethora of psychoactive drugs being pushed on everyone from cradle to grave, replacement of human soldiers with soulless mac
Don't Worry, folks! (Score:2)
As soon as this thing finds /b/, it'll explode. Problem solved.
Sounds like a Wachowski brothers movie (Score:2)
It's about scaring the masses... (Score:3, Insightful)
These systems are not for catching the bad guys. They may occasionally be caught, but the main purpose of these surveillance systems is to scare the masses so as that the masses do not overthrow the governments.
Remember 1789? the elite were caught and hanged in Bastille by the people...that's what terrifies the elite...that we, the common folks, might realize one day our power and the level of fraud(*) the elite has committed against us and retaliate the hard way, i.e. invade their homes, take them out and hang them in Trafalgar square...
(*)20% of the population owns 80% of wealth.
It Won't Work (Score:2)
The only people to successfully implement a robust and lasting system for monitoring and c
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the ability to post stuff on websites anonymously is a great thing for whistle blowers and the like without having to worry about being sent to the Gulag. Of course if sufficient encryption / time delays are not used between the poster and the website than privacy and untraceability are just an illusion
The government and the EU already have too much control over the population and will never stop making new rules and regulations, systems like this will only
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Why does anybody have problem with this? I'm from the old school that considers even email to not be private.
Says the Anonymous Coward.
If you are so dedicated to openness, why not post your name, address, phone number, and employer here? Put your money where your (anonymous) mouth is!
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That's kind of his point, isn't it? Posting with an account would be counter to his ideals; anyone with an Internet connection can take a look at what he's posted and trace it back to that account. He's saying that they can grab a profile on Beardo based on my /. posts, and perhaps an email sig with a close match.
So they tie in those two accounts and look at who I've been emailing. Everything's been accessed from an IP address within these geographic restrictions. There's a high rate of email between myself
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Its not so much about an expectation of privacy, as an expectation not to be treated like a criminal
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CC.
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why the UK seems to have such a strong desire to enable a big brother society even efore the US does
Airstrip One has always been at the forefront in the heroic conflict with our eternal enemies in [mumble]!
Moreover, the Department of Information will insist on levying Information Retrieval charges for the procedures and materials used on those who are assisting the Department with inquiries.
Sorry for the mixed dystopias, but it seems they're all bearing down on us.
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Plus of course the reason any government does anything: because they can, and brits (I know, I'm one) do not have the legal framework to object - not having any sort of constitution.
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What makes you think the 'terrorists' are anything but the state itself? It's a statistical fact that you are more likely to be harmed or killed by your own government than by a foreign nation's government. The only actual difference between what our nation's establishment and media call 'terrorists' or their associated 'acts of terror' and what our government does around the world is that our nation's acts of terror are state-sanctioned and use an organised and professional military infrastructure. The act
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Am I the only one who recalls Article 12 of the Human Rights?
No, but you are perhaps among the many who never read as far as Article 29, Section 3 [un.org] of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Your "rights" under the UDHR end where they conflict with the "purposes and principles of the United Nations" and you don't get to have a say in what those purposes and principles are.