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US Lawmakers Eyeing National ID Card

timothy posted more than 4 years ago | from the oh-wait-didn't-we-mention-this? dept.

Government 826

According to Wired (and no big surprise, considering the practicalities of implementing massive changes in medical finance), US lawmakers "are proposing a national identification card, a 'fraud-proof' Social Security card required for lawful employment in the United States. The proposal comes as the Department of Homeland Security is moving toward nationalizing driver licenses."

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And what's the problem here? (3, Interesting)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590484)

I'm not sure why Slashdot is so afraid of this. You don't have a right to be anonymous to your employer. You don't have a right to avoid taxes. You just got the right to healthcare, but do you really want that going to illegal immigrants? We already drive around with standardized (yet customizable non-materially) license plates on our cars. You already need proof of government permission and proof somebody's going to pay if you hit something to drive a car. You aren't supposed to be able to get on a plane anonymously...

Let's not think of the things we'd be able to get away with with a fake id... and start thinking how we can make sure somebody else can't fake their ID for our mutual protection.

Re:And what's the problem here? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590572)

kill yourself you brainwashed piece of shit

Timmay! (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590738)

and no big surprise, considering the practicalities of implementing massive changes in medical finance

What's the matter, didn't get enough page views on the healthcare non-article?

Re:And what's the problem here? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590832)

How about you go kill yourself.

Lol. (1, Insightful)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590578)

You just got the right to healthcare, but do you really want that going to illegal immigrants?

Yes.

 

Re:And what's the problem here? (5, Insightful)

tthomas48 (180798) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590598)

"You just got the right to healthcare, but do you really want that going to illegal immigrants?"

That's actually a bizarre statement. The options are:

1) Illegal immigrants can pay for health care in the open market (potentially taxpayer subsidized).
2) We can pay for illegal immigrants to go to hospitals as indigent care (definitely taxpayer subsidized).

I don't really understand why people would go for #2. If I can choose 100% loss vs. even 95% loss, I'm going to go with the 95%.

Re:And what's the problem here? (0, Troll)

AuMatar (183847) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590640)

They prefer options 3 or 4

3)Just let them die.
4)Arrest them at the doctors and drag them out in chains. If they die in the process so much the better.

Actually option 3 pretty well sums up the right wing view of health care in total.

Re:And what's the problem here? (1, Insightful)

theaveng (1243528) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591012)

If I find a person in my home without my permission (i.e. an intruder), I'm going to warn him to leave voluntarily. If he refuses then he will eat a bullet.

I see no reason to treat intruders from Mexico or Canada or any part of the World differently - Leave voluntarily or face the consequences. Perhaps not shoot them dead, but they should definitely be escorted out of my country, handed a Visa application, and told not to return until they receive permission.

Re:And what's the problem here? (3, Interesting)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590666)

American health insurers make it very clear that the only service they'll provide for you in Canada is medical transport back to the USA. They won't pay the out-of-country rate for Canadian healthcare.

Re:And what's the problem here? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31591032)

>> "You just got the right to healthcare, but do you really want that going to illegal immigrants?"
> That's actually a bizarre statement.

It is bizarre. To think that rights come from a government. I grant government just enough authority to ensure my rights are protected. It seems to me that the government is over-stepping its authority.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ..."

Re:And what's the problem here? (0, Troll)

couchslug (175151) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591038)

Third option:

Require citizenship checks for access to health care of all kinds, require it for access to anything useful, and empower and encourage local law enforcement to arrest illegals.

A bounty of 100 dollars a head for turning them in would have many takers.

Re:And what's the problem here? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31591058)

As long as the US is a better place to be than wherever they came from, they'll keep coming in and being a problem. If they know that they can't come here and find a legal job, that they won't get medical care, and that their children won't get a free education, they won't show up. My family came here legally. I don't see why the US should be a refugee station, unless they're actually able to claim asylum, or otherwise gain entry through legal methods.

Re:And what's the problem here? (2, Interesting)

couchslug (175151) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590628)

The price of protecting exclusivity is restricting access to America. De-facto open borders mean the only way to deter invasion from the failed narco-states (which US policy helped wreck!) to our south is to deter employment of non-citizens.

Americans indicate by their behaviors that they want a welfare state. Making that practical means restricting who gets the goodies, and pitting citizens against illegals is inevitable.

As a citizen, I don't care about foreigners and favor chasing those who won't obey the law back where they came from. It's me or them, a binary choice. This being MY country and MY birthright, fuck them.

Re:And what's the problem here? (4, Insightful)

squidfood (149212) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590906)

This being MY country and MY birthright, fuck them.

So which boat did your ancestors come in on?

Re:And what's the problem here? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590996)

The one that stopped at that little island and registered its occupants. He's not bitching about all immigrants, he's bitching about illegals; get it right.

( And furthermore, my ancestors *walked* over here. )

Re:And what's the problem here? (1)

stonewallred (1465497) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590936)

Not a fan of government IDs, but I like your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re:And what's the problem here? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590630)

I'm not sure why Slashdot is so afraid of this. You don't have a right to be anonymous to your employer. You don't have a right to avoid taxes. You just got the right to healthcare, but do you really want that going to illegal immigrants?

Why? Because we've already gone through this with the social security number, which was promised to be only used to administer social security benefits, and is now used for everything.

We don't want any more stinking ID!!!

Re:And what's the problem here? (1)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590740)

which was promised to be only used to administer social security benefits

And now they can finally make good on that promise.

Re:And what's the problem here? (1)

ffreeloader (1105115) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591010)

And now they can finally make good on that promise.

Bullshit. They'll make this an RFID card and the cards will be hacked within a week or so of being released. When everything was just starting to be computerized the argument put forward was that it would stop all fraud.

Yeah, like that really happened, and no RFID card is going to stop all Medicare, income tax, etc... fraud. It will probably make it worse, as that's been the trend so far with each promise of technological advancement being trumpeted as the "fraud-ender".

Re:And what's the problem here? (1)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590668)

The problem is that the day the U.S. Government successfully make anything fraud-proof is the day a (suidae) sus domestica obtains an aviation license.

Unfortunately, being the U.S. Government, they will no doubt pull the same sort of stupidity that made social security numbers a nightmare---specifically, treating this new token as an unforgeable piece of information, thus ensuring that anything verified with this identifier is not subject to scrutiny or correction even when fraud has clearly occurred.

Basically, to them, "fraud-proof" just means "good enough that we can ignore the problems without the peasants revolting".

Government can be effective (3, Interesting)

Spy Handler (822350) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591066)

Unfortunately, being the U.S. Government, they will no doubt pull the same sort of stupidity

Nothing is fraud-proof. Nothing is bullet-proof either. However you can make something bullet-resistant. How resistant is commensurate with the amount of effort you put into it.

People love saying government is stupid and can never do anything right, but that's not true with everything. Currency is one example: there is enough political will and a real-world need to prevent counterfeiting (fraud). Government puts a good deal of effort into preventing counterfeiting, and the penalty is quite harsh and is well-enforced. While not 100% fraud-proof, they have done a pretty good job. I have not had a problem with being given counterfeit money recently, and I don't know of anyone who has.

Re:And what's the problem here? (1, Flamebait)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590688)

We're afraid of our continuing slide into a police state, and of giving the idiots who mismanage our country the further power to deny us employment or driving at a whim or for clerical error. That driver's license permission you speak of is at the state level, and moreover it works to get on a plane.

Look at how the federal government has already mismanaged and abused things with the No-Fly list, the stupidity of relying on a mere name which dozens or hundreds or thousands of other people have to determine if someone can fly or if they'll be hassled for hours at an airport. Enough already, they can't function in a competent manner with what they have, why give them even more ways to screw with our lives.

And by the way, we were NOT given the "right to health care". Something that is taken by threat of force from one person to give to another is never a "right". If it costs me money for someone else to have it is not a right.

The truth is that plenty of U.S. slashdotters who championed the success of moderate amounts of socialism in California and of healthcare and other social services in Europe are conveniently neglecting the reality that California is bankrupt and that all of the European countries are either bankrupt or soon to be.

Re:And what's the problem here? (3, Insightful)

DavidShor (928926) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590910)

"If it costs me money for someone else to have it is not a right."

.

It costs money to pay police officers to make sure people can't rob your house and kill your kids. The money to pay for these officers was taken by force from other people. Are you going that you don't have a fundamental right not to be killed by random strangers? Some of these tax-payers had enough money to defend themselves with private security forces, why should their money be stolen just to pay for your "security"? Socialism!!!

All rights cost something, that's the point.

Re:And what's the problem here? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590994)

Moron. Multiple court cases have proven the police have no obligation to protect you or your dead kids from anything.

Re:And what's the problem here? (1)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590968)

The truth is that plenty of U.S. slashdotters who championed the success of moderate amounts of socialism in California and of healthcare and other social services in Europe are conveniently neglecting the reality that California is bankrupt and that all of the European countries are either bankrupt or soon to be.

All countries using a monetary system based on fractional reserve banking are bankrupt, or soon to be.
 

Re:And what's the problem here? (2, Interesting)

nido (102070) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590728)

You don't have a right to avoid taxes.

Actually, you (and everyone else, for that matter) has the right and the responsibility to avoid paying as many taxes as you can. Tax evasion is another matter, however.

Wikipedia has an article:

Tax avoidance is the legal utilization of the tax regime to one's own advantage, to reduce the amount of tax that is payable by means that are within the law. By contrast, tax evasion is the general term for efforts to not pay taxes by illegal means. The term tax mitigation is a synonym for tax avoidance. Its original use was by tax advisors as an alternative to the pejorative term tax avoidance. Latterly the term has also been used in the tax regulations of some jurisdictions to distinguish tax avoidance foreseen by the legislators from tax avoidance which exploits loopholes in the law.

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance_and_tax_evasion [wikipedia.org]

Re:And what's the problem here? (1)

clampolo (1159617) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590760)

I'm not sure why Slashdot is so afraid of this. You don't have a right to be anonymous to your employer. You don't have a right to avoid taxes. You just got the right to healthcare, but do you really want that going to illegal immigrants?

Because it is pretty obvious that has nothing to do with illegals. If they wanted to get rid of illegals it would be a very simple matter to do it. Previous presidents had no problem with it. Then, starting in the Reagan years it was decided to stop enforcing immigration so that cheap labor could stream in. Of course back in 1986 when we had our first amnesty (I say first since both parties want a second one so it will probably happen,) we were told that after that there would be strict enforcement. I'm sure that after this card we will get another empty promise of strict enforcement.

This crap is to make it easier to track people and make it harder to avoid the government knowing everything about you.

Furthermore, just like any other required documentation it will turn into another useless nightmare for citizens. Before going you will need to scrounge up 100 documents and pictures, etc. Then you will need to make an appointment. Then you will have to pay some ludicrous processing fee. Then take a day off work to stand in line for a day and deal with some fat government slob, etc. Then wait an entire month to get the stupid thing (which means you won't be able to travel/get a job/drive/etc while you wait for a stinking month for them to make a laminated card.) And then God knows how many months it will take for those clowns to process a change of address/etc.

The PITA of a driver's license and a social security card should be enough to scare the living crap out of anyone with half a brain from wanting a national id card.

Let's not think of the things we'd be able to get away with with a fake id

Yeah, having social security cards sure did make everything safer. Noone uses that to fake someone's identity

Re:And what's the problem here? (3, Insightful)

medge_42 (173874) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590766)

I've had this talk with a number of people. They argue that if you have nothing to hide why hide?
Well, what if they make something illegal that is a basic right.
What if alcohol was illegal?
What if being homosexual was illegal?
What if being black meant you were not allowed to vote?
What if being female meant you were not allowed to vote?
But your right, it's not like the US has a precedent of have laws like that.

All crimes are committed by the living, therefore living is a crime (Judge Death, 2000AD)

Re:And what's the problem here? (2, Funny)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590774)

It depends on what they mean. If you need ID to open a bank account then fair enough. If you need ID to walk down the street or breathe the air then no thanks.

Re:And what's the problem here? (1)

twoHats (1253090) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590866)

Had you been alive in the 50s you would know that one of the hallmarks of a totalitarian state is the possession of "Papers". May i see you papers please? When i cam home from the military a cop asked to see my ID, and when i said i had none with me, he told me i could be arrested. We argued and i won (you could do that back then). One of the reasons I was in the army was to keep the USA from becoming Stalinist or a Nazi state. is that enough you scared little weasle - do we have to give up ALL rights b4 you security freaks will be happy? No, you will never feel secure, even long affter they are all gone!

Re:And what's the problem here? (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590878)

You don't have a right to be anonymous to your employer.

Actually, you do. Your employer also has the right not to hire you if you're anonymous or to fire you if he finds out you're not who you say you are. But no one is going to arrest you because you worked for someone who didn't know your real name.
Now taxes, on the other hand will be a pain if you're not up front with your employer. As long as you don't mind being audited annually, it's no different than working for yourself as a contractor to your employer, except your employer is withholding taxes for your alias.

Re:And what's the problem here? (2, Informative)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590882)

Sorry but the license plates in the US are not standardized beyond a size and ratio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_license_plate_designs_and_serial_formats [wikipedia.org]

I've had vehicles registered in South Dakota, Oregon, Washington and Alaska.

Alaska - Embossed serial reflective sheeting with three letters and three numbers - ABC123

Oregon - Embossed serial reflective sheeting with three numbers, a space and three letters - 123 ABC

South Dakota - Screened serial reflective sheeting with 1-9 two letters, a space and three numbers. The 1-10 are county by size. 10-66 one letter, a space and three numbers. The 10-64 are county by alphabetical, 65-66 are unorganized counties (Pine Ridge and Rosebud Reservations).

Washington - Embossed serial reflective sheeting with three numbers, a dash and three letters or three letters and four numbers

Re:And what's the problem here? (1)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591114)

Within MA, there's about a dozen different varieties of "charity plates" where people pay a surcharge that is donated to the choice charity of the owners of a logo, such as a sports team or other group.

But, since they all use the same raised lettering, they're machine readable just like any other plate.

Re:And what's the problem here? (1)

clarkkent09 (1104833) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590886)

Hmm, so what you are saying "we already have some IDs and use them for some things" THEREFORE "we need more IDs and we need to use them for more things". Great argument. Mods, congratulations, you win an "Ignorant Tool of the Day" award for modding that up.

Re:And what's the problem here? (3, Informative)

Okian Warrior (537106) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590934)

The basic problem with this and many similar measures is not that people disagree with the *intent* of the changes, they disagree that there is a connection between the intent and the action.

Having IDs which are harder to fake is probably a good thing. Fake IDs are the source of much fraud, and fraud is a big problem. Let's do something about it.

Now ask yourself the following question: Would you support this measure if it cost money and made IDs easier to fake?

See Bruce Schneier [schneier.com] for a thoughtful analysis.

Here, let me quote from that article:

[The National ID card system] won't work. It won't make us more secure.

In fact, everything I've learned about security over the last 20 years tells me that once it is put in place, a national ID card program will actually make us less secure.

Whenever anything like this comes up we keep asking the wrong questions. "We should ban liquids to make us safer", "we need to take naked pictures of all airline passengers to make us safe", "we should let border guards rifle through everyone's PCs to make us safe".

Everyone wants to be safe, there's absolutely no doubt about that, we should be in favor of all these measures.

But do you support expensive naked-photo camera systems if they make us *less* safe? Again, thoughtful commentary from people who have to actually make a living at this sort of thing is instructive.

Stop distracting us with the intent and convince us of the effectiveness.

Re:And what's the problem here? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590954)

I'm not sure why Slashdot is so afraid of this.

1) Boondoggle. Yeah, sure, the card will be "un-forge-able". Up until it starts being used as an age check and the combined money of 50 states worth of teenaged college students with lots of disposable income and no beer to spend it on has been brought to bear on the problem.

2) Slippery slope. Everyone will demand it whether you're working or not. You'll have to carry it with you everywhere, and then your wallet gets stolen. At least I can keep my SS card safe at home, because when someone wants my SS# I've already memorized it and nobody cares about seeing the original piece of paper, forged or not. Chances are that to make this thing "impossible" to forge they're going to load it up with some kind of RFID or something that could never be cloned, unlike those RFID passports that were cloned by running a reader in an airport and writing new RFID tags with the same values.

3) Papers, please. We spent a lot of blood and money fighting this, and now we should just give up and accept that we are merely cattle to be branded by our government?

Re:And what's the problem here? (1)

rickb928 (945187) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590960)

"You just got the right to healthcare"

No, we just got the bill.

Granting rights in the U.S. takes more than an Act of Congress.

This misunderstanding is at the root of many of the problems our nation is experiencing, and will yet be the cause of the Second Revolution. Watch and learn.

Re:And what's the problem here? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590976)

The problem is that it is a tool of control. Next the national ID card will be used to limit or control your spending habits on whatever consumables the government decides. Most likely Gasoline and Food. You are a bad AMERICAN if you are willing to give up freedoms to gain a small amount of change. The bad will out weigh the good when it comes time to pay for it all.

We the people of the United States since the beginning of history stood for the freedom of choice. THIS is not a choice. This is enforcement or be fined. An ID card is a tracking device for the enforcement. Why do you think billions have been spent on ads for the census?

They will sell it as a way to save the planet. Then you will no longer have the currency you are use to using. It will be credits on the card that the government automatically with draws from just like the "health care" bill will now accomplish with out your consent.

Re:And what's the problem here? (1)

Obfuscant (592200) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590986)

You just got the right to healthcare,

No, "we" didn't. We got the responsibility for the people who pay taxes to pay for other people's healthcare. The difference is that the government doesn't create rights, they can only infringe upon the rights we already have, and create "entitlement programs" that some people mistake for rights because other people have to pay for them.

That's the problem.

Re:And what's the problem here? (1)

subsonic (173806) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591000)

I would only support this if it means that I don't have to put with BS like full-body pat downs and long lines at airports, faster processing whenever I go to a government office (DMV, Post Office, courthouse) and maybe (somewhere down the line) if it could be used to reference my medical history. If it is truly a national database, it should lend to more efficient business in my day to day life. If you explain this way that makes it a benefit to have and use in a positive sense (besides, no illegals taking your dishwashing jobs) more people would get on board.

Re:And what's the problem here? (1)

flyneye (84093) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591026)

Well first, being anonymous to an employer would confuse the issue when making out paychecks, thats a granted.
Second, you do have the right to avoid taxes, else H&R Block would just be filling out the same form for everyone. Hell, you have the right to protest taxes, cheat on taxes and just outright not pay taxes.
Healthcare is still in the holding pen, and we don't have it.
You don't have to have a license plate or pay state taxes on a vehicle either.(you just can't drive on state highways without one.)
All in all, the only authority is the authority you acknowledge. Living without permission is difficult , but doable.
Now quit propagating already too-popular-myths and tell your chosen authorities where to stick their i.d. card. and call homeland insecurity and social insecurity as one would call a spade , a spade.

It's part of the fantasy (4, Insightful)

copponex (13876) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591054)

It's the same reason militia groups train in the woods. They like to pretend that they could defend themselves against the United States Armed Forces. It's simply a distraction against the things that really protect freedom, like voting, community organizations, or being an active citizen in the Athenian sense.

The standing army is used for foreign coup d'etats instead of civil wars on home soil. They learned a long time ago that giving you the "choice" of entertainment, fast food joints, cars, and clothes is far more effective distraction from participatory democracy than direct government violence.

In the fantasized bleak future, the government wins because they have a national ID card. In reality, you are already owned by your debt. You either plead fealty to the system in exchange for access to material goods, and live and die by your credit report, or you suffer the consequences.

This ought to be good (5, Funny)

Skyshadow (508) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590518)

The awesome part about this is that it ought to cause the Tea Party types to blow a gasket. On one hand, you have the federal government making ID's that will make it tougher for undocumented aliens to get work, so finally all of those high-flight jobs mowing lawns and manning the grill at fast food restaurants will be safe for Real Americans(tm). On the other hand, you have the federal government making ID's that will allow them to do... Well, whatever wacky-ass conspiricy stuff the federal government supposedly does with ID's -- I'll have to wait for Glenn Beck to tell me exactly why it'll be such a problem, but I'm sure it will be. In reality, however, the big losers in any sort of forgery-proof national ID situation are going to tomorrow's 19 year-olds who won't be able to get into the bar with their "Hawaii driver's license" anymore. So really, this program only hurts the children.

Re:This ought to be good (2, Funny)

Skyshadow (508) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590546)

Oh, and the other loser? The formatting on my posts.

Eh, whitespace is overrated anyhow.

Re:This ought to be good (4, Funny)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590558)

Yeah... hopefully Glenn Beck will get caught in an infinite loop of hating government and love of homeland security which will cause him to crash and need a reboot.

Re:This ought to be good (1)

bugs2squash (1132591) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590602)

perhaps he could call in on Apple while he's there

Re:This ought to be good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590594)

Liberals should be blowing a gasket as well.

But partisans on the left would justify for healthcare under Obama the very same ID they would decry under Dubya for security.

That's why partisans on both sides suck as we constantly bounce between 49% crazy and 51% crazier.

Re:This ought to be good (0, Flamebait)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590708)

It's also going to piss them off because it makes voter ID laws no longer a filter against those who can't afford a car.

Re:This ought to be good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31591102)

you dont have to own a car to have a drivers license, and you dont have to have a drivers license to vote. Alternatively you can get a ID card (provided at the DMV i believe) which is essentially the same thing as a drivers license, sans the driving privileges. In most, if not all major cities, buses run right near the DMV's making it easy for the non-driving/car owning population to get their ID (which is actually required they do so to get a job, in case they get arrested etc). Also your not required to own a car to get a drivers license only that you have access to one to take the test.

Re:This ought to be good (1)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590778)

Well, whatever wacky-ass conspiricy stuff the federal government supposedly does with ID's -- I'll have to wait for Glenn Beck to tell me exactly why it'll be such a problem, but I'm sure it will be.

Oh it's a problem alright. Lets look at one scenario: I want to become a world class Ninja Assassin. However, the trick to this is of course not having an Identity. I don't want myself to be identifyable. My Identity is MY OWN. Not yours, and not the governments either. So if I'm at home, making some home made French Fries by slicing potatoes with katanas, all it takes is one pedophile who thinks I'm an under-aged teen to peer in through the window and see my precious face, before running off and telling someone that he saw me. Now - in an ideal scenario, no one knows who I am, and thus, makes the entire situation Moot. But under this new "National ID Card" Idea, every police officer in the city will know who I am and will set up cameras outside my nice urban rent-controlled 1 bedroom appartment, hoping to catch me in the act of Nun-chucking some serious face. This will not suffice.

And remember, this is just if I wanted to become a Ninja Assassin. What if I wanted to become a Master Ninja Veterinarian? I won't be able to hide my identity then either!

Trust me, nothing is more dangerous to the preservation of our society than government issued ID's.

NFW (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590794)

In a nutshell, Government makes mistakes.

Currently, some dipshit in a municipality somewhere make a data entry error in a database, you're affected in that municipality only, or maybe at the State level. Whether it's a local tax or a felony your damage is restricted to that area. With a Federal ID, anything and everything becomes nationally known -at least among law enforcement.

There will be a Central warehouse for Government data mistakes. And we know there will be scope creep! It is inevitable! Good god, someone takes a suitcase full of cash on a plane and the TSA thought it was their business until there was a lawsuit. Basically, I see a Government version of the credit bureaus.

Credit bureaus are notoriously inaccurate and there can be multiple entries with different names with the same Social Security Number - one reason is that the SSA recycles numbers and I've seen people who have used other people's SSN but their own names to open another line of credit. How does this apply to Government? Well, now, just ask everyone who has been wrongfully put on the "no Fly" list and you tell me how this can be a good idea. Yeah, right: Uncle Sam fucks up and it'll be a nightmare for anyone whose name and identity has been tarnished. Like the Government is going to clear our names fast - there's no skin off of their overpaid fat asses. They keep their job no matter happens to you. Sue? HA!

Someone wrongfully accused or flagged will have their names smeared across the internet for as long as that data exists.

Why, it's the Government after all! If they're found innocent then the "beat the rap" but are still guilty!

That's what people think after all.

No thank you. This is a bad idea and I see many many innocent people caught up in Government incompetence. It's better now because the current Government incompetence is limited by departments, databases, and geographical area.

Come on! This is Slashdot! We've ALL seen when shit data gets into a database and how hard it is to clean it up - especially if it's been propagated!

We know better.

Re:This ought to be good (2, Insightful)

isotope23 (210590) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590868)

Yeah, everything is all good.

Until they can REVOKE your right to work because of your political beliefs or associations...

Party on!

Re:This ought to be good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590900)

Good to know the strong principled libertarian spirit is still alive on /.

I for one am outraged that Chimpy W. Hitliar is trampling on our liberty and his homeland security brownshirts are giving national id cards!

Wait, what?

What the deal with the Tea Party? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590940)

I myself prefer a wet T-shirt Party.

this is an opportunity (1)

bugs2squash (1132591) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590552)

To replace the fucked up SSN system with something that really works. Now if only they can get it right this time and make this a secure, government only thing.

Re:this is an opportunity (1)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590620)

As much as us Americans hate being reduced to a number... something's got to be the primary key in the database records government and business keep about us.

Re:this is an opportunity (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590726)

I fail to see how numbering you makes you less than you were before you were numbered.

Re:this is an opportunity (1)

DMUTPeregrine (612791) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590810)

Yes, but the primary key shouldn't also be the secret key.

Re:this is an opportunity (1)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590956)

Yes, but the primary key shouldn't also be the secret key.

Now there's an idea that's viable... require a securely-stored PIN to unlock the card in order to prove you are you, just like debit cards. Wouldn't help with a family member taking your card, but would help if a stranger tried it.

Re:this is an opportunity (1)

FooAtWFU (699187) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591090)

Maybe if they do better than chip-and-PIN, which is fundamentally broken [zdnet.co.uk] .

Re:this is an opportunity (0, Troll)

swanzilla (1458281) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590836)

As much as us Americans hate being reduced to a number... something's got to be the primary key in the database records government and business keep about us.

I hope, for your sake, that said DB doesn't log instances of grammatical errors.

that is the point though (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590848)

The point is EXACTLY that we do not want a massive interconnected database system that can bring in one place all the information everyone ever had on a particular person, because such a system is very easy to abuse.

- PAPERS, PLEASE
- rogue police dude annoyed for you photographing him while beating up some guy
- your ex's new police boyfriend looking to pin something on you
- govt tracking which bars you frequent and what shopping habits you have (ID is already required, next step is to install govt-approved readers "for verification")
- employers accessing above info to deny employment
- landlords using it to evict unwanted people
- make too much noise politically ? we'll find some dirt on you
- political persona non grata ? fbi will alter something in the database that you can't see but will make your life miserable
- oh, and YOU WILL NEVER HAVE ACCESS TO ANY OF THIS DATA ON YOU

Of course, I'm just paranoid and this will never happen in America, and all this is just to prevent illegal alients from taking our jobs. Just like the anal probing and virtual strip searching in airports is to prevent terrorists from taking our freedoms. I really wish the government would step in and take ownership of our "property" as well to prevent thieves from stealing from us. Then they can take care of us, from each according to their means, to each according to their needs...

Yeah no problem. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590582)

Nice national ID cards for our safety and you know just to be on the safe side we need a DNA database too, to prevent people from misusing this program...and hey we need to start monitoring your internet usage to prevent people from pretending to be you and setting up appoitments or chaning your information.

Yeah its nothing to be worried about, Im sure it will be all OK.

Re:Yeah no problem. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31591018)

Nice national ID cards for our safety and you know just to be on the safe side we need a DNA database too, to prevent people from misusing this program...and hey we need to start monitoring your internet usage to prevent people from pretending to be you and setting up appoitments or chaning your information.

Yeah its nothing to be worried about, Im sure it will be all OK.

That fallacy you're riding is a mighty slippery one. It's like falling down a slope or something.

National Drivers License (1, Insightful)

frosty_tsm (933163) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590590)

I know the idea of a national ID is scary in some ways, but the idea of federal standards for driving certification kind of appeals to me. I mean, they couldn't be more lax than they are here in CA (pass the written, pass the behind-the-wheel, see you in 50 years). From a driving safety standpoint, I wouldn't mind jumping through extra hoops to make sure the other people on the road are better trained.

Re:National Drivers License (1)

Mordok-DestroyerOfWo (1000167) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590670)

The problem is that people can be as well trained as you want, they can be able to pass every test possible at the DMV. The trouble is once they get on the road they revert back to talking, texting, and general jackassery. On my 30 minute commute here in Northern Nevada (where we have more than our fair share of CA drivers) I've even made a game of counting every time I see somebody texting and driving. I have yet to have a zero at the end of the day.

Re:National Drivers License (1)

Weedhopper (168515) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590880)

I wonder what's more distracting, texting while driving or counting the number of people who are texting while driving (;

Re:National Drivers License (1)

SomeJoel (1061138) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591046)

I wonder what's more distracting, texting while driving or counting the number of people who are texting while driving (;

Contemplating relative distraction levels is fairly distracting. I started to explain that to the adjuster, but then I got a phone call and I'm not sure what he said after that.

Re:National Drivers License (1)

AuMatar (183847) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590748)

How much more do you want? People need to travel, the transit system doesn't go everywhere and doesn't work well in many places it does go. Large amounts of America require a car to live in. Its not realistic to expect everyone to live within walking distance of everywhere they want to go. So they have to let the majority on the roads. And the fact is they'll drive anyway, licensed or not. So why add extra red tape to the process requiring money to set up and maintain? Lets be real here, a license doesn't allow you to drive- if ti did you'd have to swipe it to start a car. Its just a way to positively id someone who gets caught breaking the law while driving. Useful, but no reason to have an extremely high bar to get.

Re:National Drivers License (1)

frosty_tsm (933163) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591120)

How much more do you want? People need to travel, the transit system doesn't go everywhere and doesn't work well in many places it does go. Large amounts of America require a car to live in. Its not realistic to expect everyone to live within walking distance of everywhere they want to go. So they have to let the majority on the roads. And the fact is they'll drive anyway, licensed or not. So why add extra red tape to the process requiring money to set up and maintain? Lets be real here, a license doesn't allow you to drive- if ti did you'd have to swipe it to start a car. Its just a way to positively id someone who gets caught breaking the law while driving. Useful, but no reason to have an extremely high bar to get.

You'll note I said training, not restrictions. I live in CA and know all too well how vital the car is to daily life.

Re:National Drivers License (1)

FooAtWFU (699187) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590970)

Be careful. If you make it too hard with too many hoops, then you'll see a rise in unlicensed drivers. The UK has a (modest) problem with this, actually, and very difficult/expensive licensing requirements.

Still think Obamacare is a good idea? (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590632)

Hey all you slashdotters who though that nationalizing healthcare was a good idea: Any buyer's remorse yet? Remember, we're still on day one of Obamacare. What new surprises can we expect from our newly-empowered paternal government in the weeks, months, and years to come?

Re:Still think Obamacare is a good idea? (2)

NeutronCowboy (896098) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590664)

Maybe an actual Health Care Bill, rather than a frankensteinian Health Insurance Bill?

Re:Still think Obamacare is a good idea? (1)

Terminal Saint (668751) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590804)

I'll tell you as soon as healthcare actually gets nationalized.

Re:Still think Obamacare is a good idea? (2, Interesting)

kismet666 (653742) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591044)

I'm pretty pumped up, its nice when democracy leads to a little social good.

Re:Still think Obamacare is a good idea? (1)

codepunk (167897) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591082)

I think it is a fantastic idea I get to drop my expensive health care insurance policy. The fine is far less than I pay a year and with premium increases it will only get more so. A insurance company will not be able to deny me coverage which is a killer deal. So I don't get insurance, pay a small fine and when I get sick then I will get a policy.

How do Republicans support this? (0, Troll)

HangingChad (677530) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590642)

US lawmakers 'are proposing a national identification card, a 'fraud-proof' Social Security card required for lawful employment in the United States.

The teabaggers would go ballistic, these are people ready to shoot at the census takers. You can't pander to the fringe and then throw them under the bus when they become inconvenient.

You can't have government health care (like Congress gets) but you have to get a national ID. I don't see those as intellectually compatible positions.

Re:How do Republicans support this? (2, Insightful)

the linux geek (799780) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590786)

This is primarily being pushed by Chuck Schumer, a liberal Democrat.

Nice try (1)

HangingChad (677530) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590914)

But wrong.

FTA: The proposal by Sen. Charles Schumer (D-New York) and Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-South Carolina)...

Re:Nice try (1)

night_flyer (453866) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591068)

Lindsay Graham is RINO, and has been considered as much for quite some time now.

Good Idea (1)

medge_42 (173874) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590696)

If you introduce an ID card (basically formalising/simplifying your social security number system) and nationalise the driver's licenses the right wingers will freak and they will dedicate all their efforts in stopping it. This will allow the health care reforms to settle in and become accepted.

Finally, a proper social security card (4, Funny)

noidentity (188756) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590702)

It's good we're finally going to get a proper social security card that is only used for the purpose of social security, and not as a general identification number that's treated as secret yet widely shared. No more will a social security card be used for other purposes.

Re:Finally, a proper social security card (1)

Cimexus (1355033) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590808)

Gah - sorry, modded you redundant, meant to click on insightful. Posting to undo moderation ... sorry.

Just a bunch of hot air (1)

Attila Dimedici (1036002) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590802)

This proposal is just a bunch of hot air at this point. There is no bill introduced in either house of Congress that contains the provisions discussed in this article. This is just Lindsay Graham trying to ingratiate himself to the Democrats again. For those who think this would be used to keep illegal immigrants from receiving the benefits of this new health insurance bill, keep in mind, it is the Democrats who have been the most successful at getting their votes.

Fraud proof? (4, Insightful)

gilesjuk (604902) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590842)

There's no such thing as fraud proof. Humans are involved in the process and humans are corruptible.

In fact, fraud proof makes it difficult to prove someone stole your identity if they some how manage to fraudulently apply for ID in your name.

Passport differenes? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590864)

And why is a national ID card so very different and frightening when you already have a "national" passport in the US?

National ID? (1)

DarkKnightRadick (268025) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590898)

Didn't we already try this with RealID? Something that was uniformly rejected by almost every state in the Union? What's going to make it different now?

And no, I just ate dinner so I do not want to read the article. I am afraid it will just make me sick.

Obama lied, America died! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590924)

Those who defend Obama are just as guilty as he is.

Past due (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31590946)

We have needed to update the whole Drivers License / Social Security Card / Passport / (other Government issued ID) thing for a while now, its a mess.

A single ID with standardized format and requirements would be useful. One ID to rule them all.

Sure you'll still have 10 other cards in your wallet, but simplify the damn government required/issued ones to a single ID type.

A deck of cards... (1)

nilbog (732352) | more than 4 years ago | (#31590950)

So DHS is going to make us get national driver's licenses. Congress is going to make us get national ID cards. Next FDA is going to make us all have some card in order to eat and every government agency from coast to coast is going to require some new card.

So let's see who can be first to market with a portable ID-card-dex. "Let's see here's my FDA approval card that says I can eat... wait it's expired! Ahhh!"

Do we really want this? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31591006)

Over the years there have been number of larger polls concerning a national ID system. Each and every time the results have been very conclusive and clear cut: The vast majority of Americans is strongly opposing the establishment of a national ID system. The reasons range from privacy to practical, philosophical, and religious concerns. Instead of weakening our constitutional rights and taking away our privacy little by little, our representatives need to respect democratic opinion and decisions and the will of its own people and stop trying to push a national ID system on us. This has happened in the UK where people are finally waking up and protesting on the streets now, only that it's too late for them. We are not in the UK, China, or North Korea here. The US is a democratic country and our government and representatives need to respect that. Period.

Damn You George Bush!!! (5, Funny)

Vinegar Joe (998110) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591014)

I'll be glad when Obama is finally inaugurated!

Considering ... what? (1)

wytcld (179112) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591022)

The article says nothing about this proposal being in consideration of the nation's new health care plan. What's the logic that it would be? It makes sense in connection with immigration control and jobs. But the liberals don't care much if illegal immigrants get health care - which most of them could get under their home countries' national plans anyhow (Mexico has one), so it's not what they come here for. And the tea partiers don't think the trade off between a strong national id and freedom is worth it, even to help keep the immigrants out.

News flash. Unemployment is high. A kennel in Snohomish just posted a Craigslist ad for a minimum-wage part-time dogshit-shoveler, and got > 250 resumes in response. People really, really would like every one of those jobs back from the paperless immigrants. And that's why this national id thing - which even a liberal-leaner like me is against - is likely to fly in this climate. Health care plans are hardly a factor here.

Presumption of illegality (1)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591030)

US lawmakers "are proposing a national identification card, a 'fraud-proof' Social Security card required for lawful employment in the United States.

This essentially is just furthering the "presumption of illegality" -- the presumption that a person is not allowed to work in the United States.

This is a fairly intrusive, insulting to the legal worker, and unnecessarily burdensome on business set of requirements that have all come into place because Congress writes immigration laws that are broken-by-design, and fails to enforce them effectively.

If we'd fix the fundamental structure of our immigration system to deal with the underlying problems, there wouldn't be the problems that we keep getting these kinds of band-aid "fixes" (like I-9 requirements) for, which never work.

Ihre Ausweis, BITTE!!!!!!! (1)

MarkvW (1037596) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591034)

This is not freedom. Contact your senator and let them know how you feel. This is the first step to wholesale governmental intrusion in your life. Government will keep discovering new uses for the card--and any one particular use only needs a majority to pass. You may groove on the immigration use now, but what if you're in the minority opposing the next use some whacked-out legislator proposes???

Fraud proof (1)

shadowbearer (554144) | more than 4 years ago | (#31591036)

  That's the funniest thing I've read today.

  You know what is really, really shameful?

  That not only are our elected representatives too ignorant, for the most part, to understand why this is a stupid idea; they are so arrogant that they won't even seek out opinions from the people who work in the industry, and know that there is not, and never will be, any such thing as a "unhackable" ID.

  It's been said before, in many forms, by many people, and I've said it on this site more than once in the past, but I'll say it again (refined it since the last time)

  No matter how smart you are, no matter how well you implement a piece of technology, you will always be defeated, if not by another human out of the seven billion available, then by teams of people working together." - old form was "No matter how smart you are, there is always somebody smarter."

    I can't and won't claim credit for it, but it should be a basic natural law of sentience, dammit.

SB

I don't see the problem (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31591084)

really, you should travel more. here in europe our gobernments have had track of our IDs for decades and we have social security, that will cover me for instance, if i travel to the US (it will pay the costs of any injury i might have and your hospitals will treat it as if it were an insurance company). so what? is anyone coming home to kill me because he knows a number related to my name?

i can tell you the problem: fear.

afraid of someone who's got your ID number? so what? I show my ID every night I go out, I show it every time I pay plastic, and so on, and... nothing goes wrong. same with my social security card, and even if i dont have it, if i have a health problem i know i can go to the hospital and they will take care of me. when im capable of, they will ask for an ID, ssec card or something, but i will be alive. and don't start moaning about inmigrants, 'cause Spain is being called the "door of Europe" in the northern Africa countries, and we still have no problems dealing with illegals coming in all the time..

and if you are about to say i misspelled something, yeah probably I did, English is not my mother language.

cheers all, and do be so afraid of helping your neighbours fgs

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