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The Sopranos Meet H-1B In New Jersey

kdawson posted more than 4 years ago | from the know-guys-who-know-guys dept.

Businesses 324

theodp writes "We smack this IT geek around a little, take him for a nice car ride, threaten to 'take care of him' if he doesn't recant his story, give him 5 G's for his trouble, and badda boom, badda bing, case dismissed. Federal prosecutors allege that an H-1B visa-holding IT employee who was owed some $53,000 in back wages was threatened in meetings at restaurants and in his home if he didn't change his story. However, the victim captured some of what happened on tape, and two employees of an Illinois-based IT staffing company — not named in the indictment but identified by the NJ Star-Ledger as ComData Consulting Inc. of Rolling Meadows, IL — are now facing extortion-related charges and a possible 20 years in prison."

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+1 FP (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891280)

I wail it [slashdot.org]

Re:+1 FP (0, Offtopic)

MrNaz (730548) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891300)

If you don't stop that then the Slashbot will be sent to take care of you. Oh, and here's 5gb for your trouble.

Unacceptable (4, Insightful)

Renraku (518261) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891308)

This behavior is unacceptable from companies that have offices in America. That might be how people do business in other places, but they need to leave that shit at the door. Perhaps someday we'll realize this has been going on in Chinese restaurants and massage parlors for 50 years and do something about those too?

Re:Unacceptable (2, Informative)

sznupi (719324) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891380)

You noticed that the story is about US locals doing those thing to alien working for them, right?

Re:Unacceptable (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891502)

You noticed that the story is about US locals doing those thing to alien working for them, right?

Yes, the US locals Trinath Chigurupati and Sateesh Yalamanchili were the ones who did this. If the guy you replied to had bothered to read the article he would have known that!

Re:Unacceptable (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891576)

Because indigenous US locals would have had different sounding names?

Re:Unacceptable (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891648)

Did you even read the article? It was clearly stated that one of the two dudes arrested was an Indian citizen. The citizenship of the other dude was not stated.

Re:Unacceptable (4, Funny)

kabloom (755503) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891656)

Trinath Chigurupati, a 36-year-old Indian citizen living in Monmouth Junction, was arrested at his home Wednesday and released on $150,000 bail.

I think that's a pretty good statement that a foreign citizen was involved.

Re:Unacceptable (1)

TheRecklessWanderer (929556) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891392)

Um ya cause there's no corruption in the US.

Re:Unacceptable (1)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891560)

This is about crime. Did someone claim that there is no crime in the USA? Note that the accused perpetrators are being prosecuted and will, if found guilty, go to prison.

Abuse of Restaurant Workers (5, Interesting)

linzeal (197905) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891402)

When I was an undergrad I used to eat across the street from the Engineering building at a small Vietnamese restaurant, it was cheap and hot.

One particular late night I came there with a few hours of Hydro HW, sat down and ordered some Pho and started taking my stuff out of my backpack when I heard this inhuman scream and a slap. I thought they were being robbed or something and froze there in terror until I started hearing the crying and "shhhhhh" sounds I remember all too well from a Catholic school upbringing, someone was being beaten in the back and whoever was doing it was trying to stop other people from finding out. I am ashamed to say it but I went outside and smoked a cigarette, ate the Pho and left as quickly as possible. I think I even left a tip. The next week I came in during the day to get something and the woman behind the counter had a fading welt in the shape of a belt across her face and she was smiling.

So, after that shameful moment of realization I went to the Women's Resource Center on campus and told them. Never found out what happened though, that woman's face behind the counter haunts me to this day. Too many of just do nothing when we know the shitty situation those workers find themselves in.

Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (5, Insightful)

Anpheus (908711) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891416)

Don't. Do. Nothing.

Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891440)

Do you mean:
Don't, do nothing.
or Do something?

Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (3, Funny)

The Wild Norseman (1404891) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891618)

Do you mean: Don't, do nothing. or Do something?

The latter. Of course, I don't know why anyone has to explain it; it was really quite not unclear.

Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (4, Funny)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891712)

Will you guys please stop channeling Yoda when giving advice?

Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891972)

in soviet Russia, Yoda channels you!

Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891472)

Viet, eh? That's actually a cultural thing. Women are regularly beaten if they dont work "properly."

I'm not excusing it... just saying that it doesn't have much to do with the "restaurant" part of it... more to do with the Vietnamese part...

Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (-1, Flamebait)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891652)

Contrary to what you might think, she could leave if she wanted to. You should stop worrying about other peoples plights so much, you'll live longer.

Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (5, Insightful)

shentino (1139071) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891676)

When leaving only gets you dragged back and beaten twice as hard for escaping, it's not really an option.

Escape is a gutsy move, sure to piss off the captors and it may even cost you your life.

The lion's share of the burden rightly falls on outsiders who are not as easy to catch, and are in a much better position to summon the cavalry.

Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (5, Insightful)

v1 (525388) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891780)

Contrary to what you might think, she could leave if she wanted to.

VERY common misconception where domestic and foreign worker violence is involved. No, a lot of the time these people don't believe they have a choice. By the time things have progressed to this point, most of them have it pretty thoroughly engrained in their minds that offering any form of resistance, to say nothing of reporting the problem, will only lead to intensified beatings, to the point of severe injury or death. These people are controlled by fear. Fear of worse beatings. Fear of death.

Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (4, Insightful)

fm6 (162816) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891818)

would you turn off Rush for a few minutes and do some actual reading? Try Googling "human trafficking". I think you'll find that many undocumented immigrants live under conditions little better than slavery.

Close; also 100K+ American teens at high risk. (5, Informative)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891874)

> Try Googling "human trafficking". I think you'll find that many undocumented immigrants live under conditions little better than slavery.

Close. Actually, I think you'll find that many undocumented immigrants live in conditions of slavery. To the extent where the only real distinction is that the law--which they don't know anyway--says that it's illegal.

You'll also find that hundreds of thousands of American teens are at high risk for being kidnapped or tricked into a life of slavery. Sources: The Polaris Project [polarisproject.org] , Terry Lee Wright's River of Innocents [riverofinnocents.com] , Victor Malarek's The Natashas.

Not that we should care whether it's an immigrant or not. And the difference in the cultures of different immigrant groups make different techniques useful in finding and prosecuting human traffickers. But it's not really an immigrant problem, so much as a human one.

Parent is NOT a troll (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891896)

Parent is NOT a troll.

Re:Parent is NOT a troll (1, Funny)

Score Whore (32328) | more than 4 years ago | (#31892004)

Parent is NOT a troll.

Oh yeah? How do we explain YOU then?

Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (1)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891722)

"My name is Luka, I work at your restaurant ... "

Re:Unacceptable (5, Insightful)

Sir_Lewk (967686) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891414)

This behavior is unacceptable from companies that have offices in America. That might be how people do business in other places, but they need to leave that shit at the door.

Absolutely. And really, this might be how things are done elsewhere, but it is never acceptable. I'm unfamiliar with the Chinese restaurant/massage parlor comment, but these practices need to be stamped out wherever they are. Cultural relativism is criminal when it is used to excuse crimes like this.

um, let the restaurant wokers document/report (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891458)

their abuse, there are no psychic cops; report crime, document crime, be free

Re:Unacceptable (1)

wayward_bruce (988607) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891604)

Those things happen in other places, perpetrated by similarly shady characters, but people like you only bother to note the name of the country. Whereas things happening in the U.S. are

Re:Unacceptable (1)

wayward_bruce (988607) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891612)

(borked the preview) ...attributed to individuals, or in the worst case, companies. You may rest now knowing that people like you elsewhere will now think of the U.S. business in general doing this sort of thing.

Re:Unacceptable (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891664)

The Chicago way.

Yes and no. (4, Informative)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891906)

> This behavior is unacceptable from companies that have offices in America. That might be how people do business in other places, but they need to leave that shit at the door.

I agree. We have to change it. But it's not just a foreign problem.

This is New Jersey. If you haven't heard a story about something like this happening in New Jersey, you haven't been listening. It's like not hearing a story about questionable behavior by waste contractors in several of the nation's major cities, or not hearing about racism on the part of law enforcement in some towns in the South. Sure, there are lots of legitimate businesspeople, and waste contractors, and helpful law enforcement officers. But the other kinds also exists and even thrives. Sure, sometimes its people bringing in their problems, but we have a lot of our own.

Re:Unacceptable (2, Insightful)

jbssm (961115) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891936)

This behavior is unacceptable from companies that have offices in America. That might be how people do business in other places, but they need to leave that shit at the door.

How is the parent comment rated insightful? It was US company and at least one of the crime perpetrators was a US citizen from New Jersey. It was the victim that was foreign.

Seems to me the shit was in the US to begin with and was the people from outside US that were used to good business practices that stand up against it from the story !

Man, then you ask why we Europeans think that Americans are full of crap ! At least in such obvious cases at least give the trouble to actually read the article before coming to advertise your country is the greatest thing this planet ever saw in all recorded history.

Re:Unacceptable (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891944)

hey hey hey now, let's not bring massage parlors into this. no need to get crazy.

besides, they pass the savings onto us, the customer.

Re:Unacceptable (5, Insightful)

Required Snark (1702878) | more than 4 years ago | (#31892062)

Your are so wrong when you imply that this is not an intrinsic problem in the US. It is, in fact, the corporate standard behavior for US business. Workers, clients, and investors are all disposable, and exists only to fill the bank accounts of the corrupt executive class.

Here are some examples from today's headlines. And by today I mean this week!

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/17/alec-massey-mine/ [thinkprogress.org]

Yesterday, the AP reported that Marlene Griffith, a widow of William Griffith, one of the 29 men killed in last week’s explosion at a coal mine in West Virginia, is suing Massey Energy, the owner of the mine. Griffith filed a wrongful death lawsuit in Raleigh County Circuit Court, arguing that Massey’s handling of work conditions at the mine plus its history of safety violations amounted to aggravated conduct that rises above the level of ordinary negligence.

...

Responding to the lawsuit, Nathan Coffey, the Public Affairs Coordinator of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), took to Twitter yesterday to mock Marlene Griffith. Coffey posted a link to the AP story about Marlene Griffith, sarcastically commenting that “Everyone wants free money!”

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-18/goldman-s-staged-explosion-deserves-apology-roger-lowenstein.html [businessweek.com]

As only someone from Mars doesn’t know by now, Goldman allegedly sold collateralized debt obligation, or bonds backed by mortgage securities, to institutional investors without disclosing that the specific securities were handpicked by hedge-fund manager John Paulson. Paulson was betting on the securities to fall and, for that reason, structured the securities to include losers -- not winners.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/yesterday-germany-today-uk-tomorrow-world-goldmans-response-lawsuits-everyone-q1-stub-bonuse [zerohedge.com]

As expected, the line of people preparing to sue Goldman is now longer than the posers who bought the iPad on launch day. Reuters reports that British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, who himself has been in hot water over his much lamented decision to sell UK's gold despite protests from the BOE and likely under the guidance of Goldman and JPM, wants an investigation into the Goldman affair by the FSA, and is saying that impacted UK banks will be considering legal action. Furthermore, GB slammed Goldman after the TimesOnline reported that Goldman will pay $5.6 billion in bonuses for just three months work, including 600 million pounds for London-based staff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetar_Capital [wikipedia.org]

According to reports by ProPublica/National Public Radio/This American Life that came out in early April 2010, Magnetar "sponsored" mortgage-backed collateralized debt obligations by agreeing to buy the worst tranche (portion) of the CDO, the "equity tranche". The reports claim that Magnetar then shorted (bet against) those CDOs by buying credit default swaps that insured the CDOs. If the CDOs failed, Magnetar would get back many times its initial investment in the equity tranche by receiving the insurance payoff.[2][4]

Let it begin (-1, Troll)

E IS mC(Square) (721736) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891322)

Let us all mindlessly bash the whole H1B program, all Indian techies and Indian call centers - this is our chance!!

Re:Let it begin (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891424)

try talking about changing the h1b visa laws so that h1b visa holders can change companies when they want to and get paid real us wages for work in the us..

Re:Let it begin (2, Insightful)

clarkkent09 (1104833) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891474)

try talking about changing the h1b visa laws so that h1b visa holders can change companies when they want to

Umm, they can.

and get paid real us wages for work in the us

The law already requires that. The abuses arise from the difficulty in defining the "real us wages for work in the us".

Re:Let it begin (2, Insightful)

Sir_Lewk (967686) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891498)

Here is an even better idea: Lets change the immigration laws so that if someone wants to work in the US, they can quickly and easily acquire citizenship. I assert that anyone who wants to be an American citizen enough to ask to be, deserves to be. All of this isolationist shit should have died along with the 20th century.

If we just grant these people citizenships, then we won't have to worry about the ethical ramifications of having multiple legal classes of workers in the country.

Re:Let it begin (5, Insightful)

happyemoticon (543015) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891640)

They should be able to quickly and easily get a citizen-track visa or green card, but if we just grant citizenship to everybody who wants it, people will just be citizens for as long as it is convenient - say, as long as it takes to acquire the knowledge to offshore a process or function. There is every reason to give green cards to hardworking people who want to live and die in America, but I can't fathom why we want guest workers - except to hold down domestic wages.

Re:Let it begin (1)

bluej100 (1039080) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891724)

Allowing everyone to obtain citizenship also means it's a fiscal impossibility to guarantee any level of income or health care. Having a limitless green card program is politically intractable enough; a limitless citizenship program is hard to imagine this century.

Re:Let it begin (-1, Troll)

BlueBoxSW.com (745855) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891686)

Here's a better idea:

You can come here and work and live and be a citizen as long as you find someone from here that wants to go back to your country and live and work and be a citizen.

Re:Let it begin (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891728)

Sheesh, where did your entitlement come from? Unless you're a fucking Native American, you'd best STFO and be happy that your ancestors illegally immigrated here lest you be born into some "awful non-US country."

Re:Let it begin (0, Troll)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891718)

All of this isolationist shit should have died along with the 20th century.

You are utterly ignorant.

I suggest before you start talking about how 'isolationist' America is, you get a few facts about how many people legally immigrate to America every year.

If we just grant everyone in the entire world who asks for it citizen ship then we'll effectively turn America into the worst of 3rd world nations over night.

We can help other people, no argument there, but we can't be fucking retarded like you suggest or we won't do anything but hurt EVERYONE, them AND us.

If we just grant these people citizenships, then we won't have to worry about the ethical ramifications of having multiple legal classes of workers in the country.

What? Why? What logic did you use to establish that? If we make them 'legal' they'll still be the exact same workers as before doing the exact same jobs.

If they want to work, they'll still work under the table. You can report people for paying under the table but a lot of times the company that 'pays' you will just disappear and you'll be unemployed.

In whatever Utopina fantasy universe you imagine it may be possible for America to support the entire world, but in case you haven't noticed, supporting our own internal population growth isn't sustainable, let alone taking in others.

Here is an even better idea:

No, thats a thoughtless idiotic idea spit out by some idealist with no actual connection to reality what so ever.

We are not all equal. We never will be. We never have been. There will always be members of our species that do better in some situations than in others. If you want to live in a world with no classes you'll find the only thing you accomplish is getting run over by someone with far fewer delusions.

Re:Let it begin (2, Insightful)

tehdaemon (753808) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891824)

"but in case you haven't noticed, supporting our own internal population growth isn't sustainable, let alone taking in others."

Your numbers are at least 50 years out of date. The only reason our (US) population growth is even positive is due to immigration. (direct immigration and children of first time immigrants) If zero population growth isn't sustainable, we have bigger problems than immigration to worry about.

The fact that your facts are so off makes me doubt the rest of your argument.

T

Be careful what you wish for. (2, Interesting)

AnonymousClown (1788472) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891756)

If what you wanted were to happen, all of those smart people - the millions of them - would emigrate to the US and drive wages down so far, that unless you had some sort of protection like the AMA or BAR, you'd be making minimum wage and I'm sure a black market would open up for others to work less.

As it is, having a h1-b or having to physically move overseas or creating some sort of relationship over there, has kept us from sinking that low - but it will happen eventually. I don't see the World's economy growing fast enough to account for all the labor being added as more and more countries start trading with the rest of the World.

Re:Let it begin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891432)

You just couldn't wait to play the race card, could you?

Re:Let it begin (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891454)

The H1B program deserves to be bashed, mindless or not. It artificially depresses the IT job market by flooding it with workers who are easy for companies to bully or take advantage of. These workers allow themselves to be treated like crap because they cannot leave their jobs without risking getting sent back to India. Most of them are afraid to speak up when they are treated unfairly because #1, they feel like they have it better than they did in India and #2, they don't know their rights in our country.

Re:Let it begin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891548)

What, exactly, is mindless about citing this heinous shit as a fine reason for not supporting H1B corporate slavery?

Excuse me? All criticism has been well earned. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891596)

All of the criticism that they get is very well earned.

H-1B developers don't know what they're doing. That is why they aren't employed in India. That's also why they're being hired; because they're dirt cheap. Of course, the non-technical managers hiring these fools don't truly understand that. Even though these managers can't themselves code at all, they're absolutely sure that every programmer is equivalent to every other programmer. Reality always hits them hard when they find out that the Indian guy they just imported can't code even as well as an American high school student.

Every Indian-trained technical of any sort that I've dealt with has been a fucking fool. They can't complete even the simplest of tasks, and that's even when you're holding their hand and telling them exactly what to do. I think it's how they're trained. They're not trained to think, but rather to regurgitate answers. When it comes to programmers, they can recite Java method signatures (you know, that our IDEs would auto-complete for the rest of us), but they can't come up with even basic algorithms on their own, or make any sort of a decision that involves critical thinking. When it comes to network technicians, they just follow the examples in the Cisco textbooks they've bought; they just have to follow some sort of a template.

Indian call centers are by far one of the most pathetic things to arise from the computing industry in decades. They take the worst traits mentioned above, and combine and multiply them into the ultimate package of uselessness. Not only are these people utterly stupid and ignorant, and they have to follow templates and scripts, but they turn around and like to you when they answer the phone with their thick accents, and say something like, "Good day, sir. I am Michael and talk to me of your problems." No, Thuriphindinar, your name is not "Michael".

That said, Indian-born developers who get all of their training (from age 3 or 4 upwards) in Europe, North America, Australia or Japan usually end up being okay.

Re:Excuse me? All criticism has been well earned. (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891858)

Really? Let's see, I'm a newly minted H1B. My wages here are $15k above the wages that the role was offering (so I'm nicely into six figures before bonuses and stock). I've been coding for 20+ years, I've been brought in to upskill the team and bring those 20 years of experience to bear, I'm leading the development of a small product, pushing code quality, dealing with other teams, users and the wider open source community.

But then I'm British. So why don't you just say what you mean? That you don't rate Indian developers. Don't try to hide behind the H1B programme - you have a problem with a sub-continent, and you're tarring everyone from there with the same brush.

Re:Excuse me? All criticism has been well earned. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31892066)

You come into this country
You can't get real jobs
Boats and boats and boats of you
Go home you fuckin' slobs
Selling hot dogs on the corner
Selling papers in the street
Pushing, pulling, digging, sweating
Where you come from must be beat

You always make us wait
You're the ones we hate
You can't communicate
Speak English Or Die

You don't know what I want
You don't know what I need
Why must I repeat myself
Can't you fuckin' read?
Nice fuckin' accents
Why can't you speak like me
What's that dot on you head,
Do you use it to see??

Re:Let it begin (4, Insightful)

SirWinston (54399) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891768)

You can't say it's always "mindless" to "bash the whole H1B program, all Indian techies and Indian call centers"--there are a few who do it out of prejudice, but most Americans complain about these things for perfectly rational reasons.

"Buy American and Americans work." That was the well-advertised slogan of the 80s, and yet NAFTA and outsourcing empowered a transnational corporate world in opposition to the very values of localism and national pride which most Americans grew up embracing. Importing foreign workers and exporting American jobs are some of the most visible violations of these values.

The oft-repeated mantra is, "We don't have enough skilled workers, so we need H1B!" Then why does almost anyone in the tech sector know many skilled but unemployed Americans? And if there were a real shortage, introductory salaries and incentives would let the "free market" attract more Americans to become qualified for tech jobs in the near future--but instead, H1B keeps introductory salaries and incentives artificially low and _creates_ the very shortage tech employers complain about!

"Call center work (or 7-11 clerking, or construction, or industrial farm work, or any 'unskilled labor') is drudgery no Americans are willing to do!" Bullshit. Maybe they won't do it for minimum-wage-or-less like immigrants or outsourced labor, but if not unfairly undercut by immigrants or outsourcing there are millions of Americans who would gladly work any and every job. Just look at the damned unemployment rate, especially among minorities--it is patently unjust and unreasonable to support immigration and job outsourcing when so many Americans are left jobless. If a job is vital and needs to get done, employer and employee will find the right pay each is willing to live with--the market will set fair pay in a fair, largely closed system. But in an open system filled with endless hordes of immigrants and outsourced labor willing to work for wages no American can live on--unless he's willing to live in a closet and eat the cheapest processed foodcrap imaginable and never even dream of supporting a family and kids--employees become a disposable commodity and employers will exploit the unjust and unnatural imbalance.

So, while what happened to this H1B guy is inherently unfair, criminal, and wrong--it is the foreseeable result of the H1B program, which along with outsourcing and uncontrolled immigration is creating an imbalanced market where workers both skilled and unskilled are disposable commodities instead of people.

And that doesn't even begin to touch on the cultural issues. The Western world, and especially the U.S., is currently committing cultural suicide by not limiting immigration to rational levels. We are a nation built on immigration, that's true--but it has never neared this uncontrolled torrent before: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871651411393887069# [google.com]

Re:Let it begin (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891952)

Thanks for the link - the video makes sense when you consider the illegal aliens. But I sincerely doubt H1B program is causing any significant amount of population growth in the United States. The 6yr cap, the dismally low Green card numbers leading to decades of wait periods, the very volatile IT job market, the fact that most h1-b workers are brought by outsourcing companies which by definition means that they are temporary (2-3 year average stay in my experience) - this all means that H1-B people are may be not even be significant to cultural, environmental and all the other issues pointed out in that presentation.

Re:Let it begin (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891970)

Wow, another mindless rant full of misconceptions, Where should I start?

The H1B's (as opposed to "outsourced jobs") are paid the same as an American worker would. So, please learn the difference and understand to place your indignation in the right place. The H1-B Program is a legitimate way for companies to be competitive. You should be holding your representatives and senators accountable for updating the rules and enforcement to root out these types of fraud. But it is easier to "bash the whole H1B program, all Indian techies and Indian call centers". In this case, the angst is misplaced and done out of ignorance or malice. People who engage in this are, quite frankly, ignorant and will willfully throw the baby out with the bathwater. Call your senator and congressman and tell them to fix the H1 Visa program.

Anecdoatlly, I feel that the mantra "We don't have enough skilled workers, so we need H1B!" is actually accurate when taken in context - and for two completely different reasons. One is that you're lumping all "skills" together: a Web Developer is NOT a good systems administrator or a DBA. So, you do get spot shortages of specific skillsets in places. The second is that the Indian software industry focuses on developing niches more effectively than in the US. Our kids are well rounded - they're not as good at being specialists in a given field. So, I can locally find a guy who can figure out his way in a given system (makes for a great supervisor of contract resources, BTW). But if I need someone who understands the intricacies of the SAP-HR module, it is more efficient to get a contract specialist. This is where companies that staff using H1-B's excel because I (a) can't keep this specialist busy and productive 40/hr a week month-after-month and (b) he won't ever be remotely interested (even if he does have the skills) in taking on a more flexible role.

In short, the above has been my experience.in the past 15 years of being in IT and then in SW Development. I have found that many Americans workers detest working with Indian colleagues (regardless of whether they're H1-B or not). I find this racist and stupid in the extreme and this attitude really hurts them and gives American workers a bad name. I know that some managers will prefer to not mix US sourced folks with employees or contractors of Indian origin.

I actually had a US Citizen turn down a 6month contract at $105/hr because he felt that the working conditions were not appropriate. His complaint: no assigned cube with window view and he reported to an "unqualified" supervisor ... which was code for someone of Indian background.

So, I have a hard time finding sympathy with your post. Perhaps if it was a little more informed and researched, I might be willing to engage constructively.

Re:Let it begin (1)

Kr1ll1n (579971) | more than 4 years ago | (#31892012)

In regards to the H1B program, I always felt like it was a joke. There are way too many people in IT in the US alone thanks to the certification mills of the late 90's, that the "need" for immigrant workers, temporary or not, wreaks of total bullshit. Same thing goes for outsourcing. Granted, it may be cheaper for Company "A" to outsource, but it ends up costing them revenue when Company "B", based in the US, can not afford to buy their product as B's own product is not selling well due to lack of localized economic growth. If anyone is interested in the impact of outsourcing on a foreign economy, please see here: http://www.realtyna.com/dubai_real_estate/dubais-economic-growth-report.html [realtyna.com]

Those who hire H1Bs need to be crucified (0, Troll)

Cryofan (194126) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891376)

hang the H1B-hiring traitor pimps at the crossroads and leave them there to rot.

Note To "Goombahs" and Other Wannabes (5, Interesting)

IonOtter (629215) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891390)

Geeks live for this sort of crap, so don't try it.

You will lose.

Free Market (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891400)

Why shouldn't a company be allowed to do this in a free market? The Market is self-correcting, so if they do this then no one will work for them and they will go bankrupt. So let them do it, that is the American Way!

Re:Free Market (5, Insightful)

Speare (84249) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891588)

If they do this, then no one will work for them and they will change names and thrive. See Blackwater (nee Xe), Anderson Consulting (nee Accenture), AirTran Airways (nee ValueJet), Philip Morris (nee Altria), and perhaps as a zombie counterpoint, Caldera International (nee SCO Group).

Re:Free Market (1)

russotto (537200) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891634)

If they do this, then no one will work for them and they will change names and thrive. See Blackwater (nee Xe), Anderson Consulting (nee Accenture)

Andersen Consulting changed its name as a result of a dispute with their parent company Arthur Andersen which also resulted in Andersen Consulting becoming independent of Arthur Andersen. Further, they did so prior to the discovery of Arthur Andersen's crookedness in the Enron mess. They did not change their name to attempt to cover over any wrongdoing on their part.

Re:Free Market (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891816)

They did not change their name to attempt to cover over any wrongdoing on their part.

You say "tomato", I say their fucking thieves. It's all good.

Re:Free Market (5, Informative)

SteveFoerster (136027) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891660)

Good examples, but FYI the word "née" works the other way around.

Re:Free Market (1)

Speare (84249) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891792)

Cool, thanks for the correction. I thought it was direction-neutral. Looked up the etymology.

Re:Free Market (1)

colinrichardday (768814) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891662)

Shouldn't that be Altria, nee Philip Morris?

Re:Free Market (1)

Ogre332 (145645) | more than 4 years ago | (#31892008)

You forgot Xfinity (nee Comcast)

Re:Free Market (3, Informative)

Gorbag (176668) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891856)

Even staunch libertarians don't condone fraud.

Mistakes Were Made (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891408)

Not that I advocate that sort of thing, but when I worked for local uhmm...businessman as a young hoodl..er...turk, we did more than talk. We made the sale with a sample of the wares. We also offered to send samples to his fam...uh associates. We were always 100% successful and no outside competitors were needed to uh... close the sale. When you mean business, you show it, you don't say it. It's a tough world out there and you gotta get your pound of flesh, uh so to speak. I think the guys in the old ...union...would get a chuckle out of these amateurs.
            I've aged gracefully and the old "union" sort of fell apart due to dea..chronic illness and incarcer..early retirement. I've got a Joe Shmoe job now that is far less hazardous and I never had to suffer any of the usual "illnesses" associated with the job. Too old for that crap now.

From the ComData Web Site (5, Insightful)

fm6 (162816) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891446)

Our Talent Engagement and Management Teams strongly believe in

  • Relationships built on openness and trust
  • People centric atmosphere
  • Team building culture with 360o feedback between management and employees
  • Achievement of a qualitative work life
  • Flexible work culture with family first attitude

The capacity of recruiters for absolute BS is amazing. Mind you there are smart ethical headhunters out there, but they're few and far between.

Re:From the ComData Web Site (1)

deniable (76198) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891898)

Talent Engagement And Management TEAMs. That's officially double-speak.

Family first attitude. Yes, that family.

Re:From the ComData Web Site (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891986)

360 feedback = We spin you around until you agree

Let Com Data hear from you (5, Interesting)

shis-ka-bob (595298) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891456)

Email to info@comdataus.com. If you have hiring authority, promise never to use them. If you don't have hiring authority, just remember the name and badmouth them to anyone who does.

Re:Let Com Data hear from you (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891488)

Because a company can't change their name?

Re:Let Com Data hear from you (2, Informative)

QRDeNameland (873957) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891508)

I heard they're going to change their name to Webistics [youtube.com] .

Re:Let Com Data hear from you (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891492)

Anyone notice how "careers" is misspelled on their website? That alone would cause me to NEVER use their services, because if you can't proofread your own damn website, what guarantees are there that you pay attention to detail in whatever work you provide?

How many years? (5, Interesting)

tompaulco (629533) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891538)

20 years for extortion, and how many years for falsifying the need for entry level IT workers? I can name several unemployed people who could easily fit the task of "web development, information technology and software development" mentioned in the article. Specialized skill, yeah right.
Judging by the content of recruiters e-mails that I get, it is not possible to get an IT related job in the United States right now unless you are an H1-B visa holder.

Re:How many years? (3, Insightful)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891572)

> Judging by the content of recruiters e-mails that I get...

And, as we all know, there is no more reliable source of information than recruiters.

Re:How many years? (-1, Flamebait)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891754)

The difference is your friends are willing to work for the wage offered.

There is a supply of workers that are as qualified as they need to be that will work for far less.

For people who are supposed to be intelligent, it never ceases to amaze me that developers are amazingly ignorant of the way the economy really works.

Supply and demand. There is far more supply than demand at the moment and for a while to come. The Internet has put a lot of people in the world on an equal footing meaning that you aren't special anymore and theres a guy half way around the world thats more than happy to work for a year on what you make in a week because that still means he can feed his entire family.

Get some perspective you arrogant self entitled fuck.

Re:How many years? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891926)

"Get some perspective you arrogant self entitled fuck."

Stay classy BitZtream, an insult always makes a sound argument more convincing - or is that just the bad crank talking?

"The Internet has put a lot of people in the world on equal footing ..."

Did you read the story? It was about a guest worker in the United States, who was owed prevailing wages, which are not anywhere close to the levels you're talking about.

No offense there buddy, but I sense a bit of anger, resentment, hostility and maybe a bit more here. Perhaps it would be best for all if you just stayed right where you are.
Given your post, if you're earning at the level you indicate (about 52 times less than a US-based Engineer), I would judge that's probably about what you're worth.

Re:How many years? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891852)

I've worked in IT for 20+ years.. I've worked with a lot of decent QA and developers who were on H1B, but none of them had any specialized skills that every QA / dev I've known didn't have. There might be some legitimate need for H1B, but it's most definitely abused most of the time.

New Career Choices in IT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891586)

Why didn't anyone tell me this earlier? I didn't know I could use my computer science degree to intimidate people. So here is my resume future iron fisted IT companies.

I'm 6'6", 220 lbs and I have a black belt in mixed martial arts. Also I have a degree in computer science, and some other degrees...wait ignore that part the first part is more important for what you need me to do.

Get back to me as soon as possible

Re:New Career Choices in IT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891650)

Would you consider yourself morally flexible?

Is the recording admissible? (1, Interesting)

Lord Byron II (671689) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891598)

Under Illinois law, you can only audio record if all parties are made aware of the recording. If this guy was recording surreptitiously, then he might be in for some legal trouble of his own, not to mention that the recording may or may not be admissible (IANAL).

Re:Is the recording admissible? (4, Informative)

Rick Zeman (15628) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891638)

Under Illinois law, you can only audio record if all parties are made aware of the recording. If this guy was recording surreptitiously, then he might be in for some legal trouble of his own, not to mention that the recording may or may not be admissible (IANAL).

If you RTFA you'd see a) it was NJ, not Illinois and b) On Feb. 4, the two men met him again at a restaurant and offered to pay $5,000 for him to recant his story, authorities said, adding the consultant had gone to federal authorities by then and was outfitted with a hidden recorder that captured every threat.

Re:Is the recording admissible? (1)

machine321 (458769) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891674)

FTFA:

On Feb. 4, the two men met him again at a restaurant and offered to pay $5,000 for him to recant his story, authorities said, adding the consultant had gone to federal authorities by then and was outfitted with a hidden recorder that captured every threat.

Re:Is the recording admissible? (1)

Fishbulb (32296) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891690)

FTA, the employee had gone to the authorities, who were apparently already investigating them. Likely, they wired him. Which would be fully admissible.

Re:Is the recording admissible? (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891782)

There are two aspects of law that apply to audio recordings.

First, you can't use it as evidence (without having a warrant that says that a specific recording can be made). So, while you couldn't take it into court, you certainly could use it to go to the police and convince them very effectively to investigate further. And if the criminals are using such amateurish standover tactics, then odds are pretty good that basic police investigating will be enough to charge them soon afterwards.

Secondly, it's an invasion of privacy. Even - for some funny reason - in a public place (hey, I didn't write the law). But, odds are extremely low that you'll be charged criminally, since the DA has better things to do than charge victims, and criminals aren't usually going to go to a civil court to say that they've been recorded illegally when the illegal recording in question identifies their own much more illegal activities.

I'm not saying I advocate means-to-an-end/fight-evil-with-evil solutions; I'm just saying that, pragmatically, someone who makes an audio recording of a crime doesn't have much to worry about on account of the recording itself. So you're completely correct, but none of what you're correct about matters very much in practice.

Also; that's not what happened anyway. It was a recording with a warrant (and not in Illinois), so none of what either of us said applies.

Re:Is the recording admissible? (1)

PieSquared (867490) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891802)

Yes, that wouldn't be admissible under Illinois law (to the best of my understanding, IANAL). Or the law of 11 other states. In New Jersey (where this took place) and most other states in the union, you only need one party's consent.

Re:Is the recording admissible? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891882)

You know, most people just say IANAL. You don't have to demonstrate it. Really.

Re:Is the recording admissible? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891954)

WHAAAAAAATTTT???????????

So, someone threatens your life, you record it and use it as evidence so it is more than your word vs. theirs and then you get in shit for providing proof?? You must be crazy or the law is crazy.

Revolting (1)

MarkvW (1037596) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891608)

This is exactly why we have criminal law. There is a special place in hell for people who take advantage of vulnerable people, but while they are here on earth we have another place for them--prison.

I'm outraged.

Re:Revolting (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891744)

There is no hell or god you idiot, this world is so screwed up exactly because of pathetic feeble minded religious tards like you.

Re:Revolting (4, Interesting)

carlzum (832868) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891840)

I lived in a small town on the Jersey shore and the tourist industry was controlled by organized crime. There were things like pizza shops that stayed in business without customers, suspicious fires, business owners being "encouraged" to sell, etc. Each summer an army of Mexican workers would appear out of thin air to staff the restaurants, hotels, and beaches. I figured it made sense with New York City near and the promise of work.

A few years ago, it came to light that the local mob was working with Mexican mobs to traffic in seasonal workers across the state. They were working for next to nothing, usually tricked or coerced into service by Mexican criminals.

Like you said, it was revolting. A lot of them were teenagers or young families with kids. It was a very small town, but we never saw them in school or playing outside. Police found homes with 70+ people crammed in every room. They were apparently told to stay out of sight and spent months with young children shut inside day and night.

Recruiters lie, get everything in writing (5, Interesting)

onyxruby (118189) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891670)

I remember years back being lured to a new job with one of the incentives being that the job included health insurance. Turned out that they 'had' it terms of it was offered, not included. It was an awful plan with no employer cost coverage. The cost for my family would have been a grand a month if I had paid for it.

I explained that I was one phone call from going back to where I came from and that the recruiters deceptive words were going to have a cost. In the end they ate the cost of the insurance, and I stayed where I was. Some people will bully you unless you stand up for yourself. All that being said, in today's economy I don't know if that is still good advice.

How about accountability in H1B with public records? That would solve this kind of problem for the poor guy who was owed so many back wages. Those in the states who are losing out to H1B's would better be able to make the case that their are Americans who can do the job. Those that do come over could avoid being turned into virtual slaves, I have met far too many H1B's who were worked 80 hours a week for wages less than half what an American would take. They would do it too, whether it was because their passport was confiscated or because such wages were still that much better than what they made at home.

Professional Coyotes? (4, Informative)

beadfulthings (975812) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891682)

This is fascinating in light of the recent lawsuit [npr.org] filed and won in Louisiana on behalf of a group of teachers from the Philippines who were brought here to teach and virtually held hostage by the agency that recruited them. (They won their lawsuit a few days ago--can't recall the more recent source.) Their visas were held by the recruiter as they were squeezed for ever-increasing fees, forced to rent substandard housing at exorbitant rates, and otherwise abused.

It's especially fascinating to me that in these recessionary times when recent American college graduates can't find work, we have to import elementary and high school teachers and people with the most basic IT skills so that they can be held in indentured servitude and squeezed for more and more money. I guess human trafficking is no longer limited to unskilled workers.

Re:Professional Coyotes? (1)

Renraku (518261) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891942)

Let's just say that they aren't being imported because there's a high demand for foreign work. They don't have skills that American workers don't have.

Why are we importing them, then?

Because we can treat them like slaves because most of them are ignorant to the laws in the USA. They see it as a land of opportunity and are willing to work for less than decent wages to get their feet in the proverbial door. No one usually tells them that they'll have ever-increasing debt the likes of which we haven't seen since corporate script in miner towns was common, though.

We're importing them because someone's making money off it. The recruiting agencies, head hunters, human trafficking rings, etc. All of them get a cut of the already-low wages of the immigrant worker.

Can I go undercover? (2, Funny)

pspahn (1175617) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891710)

It would not only be a fun and refreshing change from "normal" work, it would create so many new networking opportunities. Think of all the great and influential people you would meet!

Extortion is common (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#31891886)

Extortion was very common at BellSouth a few years ago when I worked there as a contractor. The majority of contractors were H1Bs from India. They were working 50-60 hour weeks but were told to only charge 40 if they wanted to keep their jobs. It wasn't the contracting firms putting the squeeze on them; it was Bellsouth management putting pressure on them to meet deadlines without charging overtime. Their rates were undercutting local contractors and with them only charging 40 hours for 60 hours of work, there was no way to compete, so I bailed.

People unclear on the concept (1, Interesting)

swm (171547) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891908)

Extortion only works in two cases
  • the extortionist is the government (see also: taxes)
  • the government has abdicated sovereignty over the victim (e.g. drug dealers, prostitutes, bookies, loan sharks)

IT staffing firms don't fall into the first category, and web developers don't fall into the second.

More! (1)

b4upoo (166390) | more than 4 years ago | (#31891974)

Twenty years is not enough and I hope they sweep up the entire company!

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