Fee Increase Attempt Inspires 'Dump Your Bank Day' 667
suraj.sun writes with this excerpt from CNN Money: "Customers are dumping their banks in droves ahead of the nationwide 'Move Your Money' and 'Bank Transfer Day' movements this Saturday. Given the recent spotlight on attempts — and ultimate failures — by some of the nation's biggest banks to tack on new debit card fees, thousands of disgruntled consumers have already either left or pledged to leave their current bank for a community bank or credit union, which are known for having fewer and/or lower bank account fees. ... At least 650,000 consumers have already joined credit unions since Sept. 29, the day Bank of America announced plans to impose its controversial $5 debit card fee, according to a nationwide survey of credit unions by the Credit Union National Association."
I did (Score:4, Interesting)
I moved to a credit union 15 years ago and never looked back. Good service and no ridiculous fees.
Didn't B of A drop their fee? (Score:3, Informative)
I certainly do not like all the fees that banks have, but didn't B of A drop their plans for the fee? http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bank-of-america-to-drop-debit-card-fee-report-2011-11-01 [marketwatch.com]
For the moment. (Score:5, Informative)
Yep, they've put that $5 on hold for now.
But they'll look for different ways to stick you with additional fees.
They want to keep increasing revenue. And you're the source of that revenue.
On a related note, when you switch banks, make sure you know EVERYTHING about your transactions. Too many stories out there about how someone missed an automatic payment (annual or some other kind) and the bank re-opened their account, charged them and then charged them an overdraft fee. Even when the account was SUPPOSED to be closed.
customer service? (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm a currency collector and a WheresGeorge addict, so I visit banks very often, complete with unusual requests. So I suppose retail service is more relevant to me than others.
Do you have any problems with the folks at your credit union branch(es)? I honestly wouldn't know either way. CU's won't do even simple stuff for non-accountholders, so I don't have any experience with the personnel save for a negative impression. I have gotten accounts at some regular banks that I initially visited as a non-accountholder.
of all the issues with big banks, retail-location customer service doesn't seem to be one of them.
In general, the cheap version of something is sometimes satisfactory, sometimes not.
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I have had many big banks refuse to cash a check for me, too. As a non-customer of theirs, even when the damn check was DRAFTED ON THAT BANK, they refused! They cited some ridiculous bullshit about not being able to identify me or some crap even though they try to humiliate and even fingerprint you when you want to get a simple check cashed. Utter crap - that should be fucking illegal - if a check is drafted on a given institution, it should have to honor it no matter what.
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Thirty years ago for me. Safe Federal Credit Union has been excellent.
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I just wish the media will cover this more like Netflix. It isn't a political statement, it is just moving to a better service. The fact BoA was stupid to add a new charge in a mist of a recession just trigger a big switch.
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Re:I did (Score:5, Funny)
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It's this piece of paper with money on it that you get for the first couple of weeks after you get a job. You'll see someday.
It's kind of like bitcoin, but without the constant anger over being sniped.
Re:I did (Score:5, Funny)
So, it's like a direct deposit, but printed out on a piece of paper ? Sounds very cumbersome and archaic.
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I haven't seen an employer that didn't use direct deposit since the tiny company I left way back in 1999. With the small company I work for now, I've never seen a paycheck; it's always been direct-deposited.
When friends and family pay you, you're probably at home, in which case you go to your local credit union and deposit the check. And how often do you exchange money with your friends and family anyway? If you ever make loans to family members, you can count on never seeing that money again and having
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Many of the companies for which I have worked have required that the DD be set up in the system for the entirety of the payroll period, or else they would just give you a check. Seeing as how most companies have you do that kind of paperwork on your first day, you're looking at your first (and sometimes second or third if the HR department is slow) check coming to you on a dead tree, even if you set up the DD on your first day.
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I suspect GP is not from U.S. I've been in a few countries, and U.S. is the only one where I have to deal with cheques with any regularity. In any other country, all cases you've listed are handled by direct deposits or wire transfers.
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I'm in Canada and self-employed. Most weeks I deposit some cheques into my credit union.
Also all the credit unions, at least in BC, have banded together for purposes like sharing ATM machines which means I can deposit cheques in any credit union ATM or withdraw money without fees.
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Even here in the not-as-civilized USA, checks are dying out, at least for those of us who don't work under the table and have real social security numbers (those who don't keep a very large check-cashing industry in business--these are stores where you can go to cash a check, for a ~5% fee or so. People who don't have bank accounts frequent these places, and if you drive through a part of your city that has several of these stores nearby, you know you're in a crappy part of town).
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But you're right in the sense that rent is pretty much the last hold out. Mortgages are generally all electronic now. I don't think I've paid anything else with a check since the 90s. All my bills are auto-billed. It was actually a problem when I moved to a different state, because they wanted a utility bill in addition to a lease to establish residency and I didn't have any.
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Oh, same deal if you want to deposit your check. If you can't find your own bank branch, you're going to be learning their bank-by-mail process.
Fortunately, these days, there are national banks that brag about charging no fees and, while they have zero bricks and mortar, they allow you to deposit a check by sending them a picture of it: Ally Bank [ally.com] is that. It's also formerly GMAC, so it might raise your Too Big To Whatever hackles a bit. They also, by the way, pay more interest than any other bank I can
Re:I did (Score:5, Informative)
Oh, same deal if you want to deposit your check. If you can't find your own bank branch, you're going to be learning their bank-by-mail process.
You need to do some research. First, how many people have checks to cash while on travel? I would take care of that while home. But even if I did, I can go to any 7-Eleven in the U.S. and most credit unions in the co-op network [co-opfs.org] and deposit a check. Getting access to money is easy.
My local credit union in Fresno has served me well even when I lived in the Bay Area for 12 years. It's amazing what can be accomplished with great customer service, even before ubiquitous online banking.
Re:I did (Score:5, Informative)
Credit unions have networks of ATMs these days. You can just deposit your checks/cheques in a nearby ATM that is in your credit union's network. I expect that they will have apps that allow you to deposit via your smartphone soon.
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Four different credit unions, eh? Don't want the various wives and GF's finding out about each other?
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Even small credit unions have credit cards and you can get cash at hundreds of thousands of Co-Op networked ATMs.
Most of the time the Credit unions even pay the ATM fees.
Checks you say.... I haven't written one of those in months.
Checks = lame (Score:3)
Credit Unions are part of networks. You are misinformed.
Not true... (Score:5, Informative)
Many credit unions are part of the CU Service Center and share ATMs and even teller services. My CU is in Seattle and I have deposited checks at CUs in Minnesota. Not true for all CUs, but many are part of this system.
Re:I did (Score:4, Informative)
I have a small bank, only two branches, because the closest credit union is 35mi from here. During college and for several years after, I lived hundreds of miles from my bank and it wasn't a problem. If I needed an ATM, I could usually find one in-network (star) and if I needed to deposit a check, I would drop in in the mail and it was available a few days later.
It wasn't that big of a deal.
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You're right about the check thing, but not a lot of people use checks anymore.
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I have no problem using the ATM's at other credit unions nationally that are part of the network.
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My nearest branch for the past 15 years has been 3 hours and one state away. In that entire time, I've had to make only a handful of visits to an actual branch, mostly to pick up a check to give to a car dealer. My mortgage is through a local credit union, but my paycheck is direct deposit, I have checks and debit cards to pay bills, and online and telephone service for when I need to talk to someone.
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Do you open your gifts at night, or in the morning when your mom comes downstairs with cake?
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Find a Credit Union that is in the "Shared Branching" network, and you can go to any other CU in the network in the US and deposit/withdrawl your money, just as if you were at your own credit union. P.S. I work for a credit union and have set up the SB connections. Follw this link to find the CUs that participate.
http://www.cuswirl.com/
Re:I did (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I did (Score:5, Interesting)
That's baloney. I moved my family's accounts, my business accounts and the account for a micro non-profit I run out of Chase and into a credit union back in 2008 after the banks got bailed out. I travel all the time and there are tens of thousands of "cross-branched" institutions where you can cash a "check" (do people still use those things?). My business takes in a lot of wire transfers from Europe and Asia and my credit union not only does a great job, but they charge me less than Chase did.
Plus, I have a personal relationship with the local officers of my credit union and they're great. They've put me in touch with other customers of theirs that they thought would be interested in the work I do and they were a huge help when I made some significant changes to the non-profit. I doubt I'll be looking for a new mortgage any time soon, since I own my house and it's very unlikely I'll need anything bigger or more expensive once my daughter moves out, but if I needed to borrow money, they're ready to lend and I wouldn't have to jump through the hoops or kiss ass the way I would at Chase.
I so wish there would have been a referendum on the TARP bailouts in '08. We might have lost a bank or two, but the pain would have been long over by now and we'd be in a lot better shape without the $16trillion that the Fed has had to give the banks at 0% to keep up this charade.
I'm hoping there's some pain felt at Wells Fargo and Chase and BOA this coming week.
This campaign to move money out of the big banks is just the first of the real-world situations where the Occupy Wall Street movement and people like Elizabeth Warren are leading the way to forcing the economic elite to maybe think about learning to behave. Oh, and I figure I saved at least a few hundred bucks last year by moving out of Chase, so I'm sending it all to Warren's campaign and maybe $100 or so to the people from the occupy movement down the street in Grant Park.
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I can do that from my phone any where in the world that has WiFi. My credit union also pays me ATM fees back up to $5 per transaction. What does your bank do besides suck and be expensive?
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"And zero national presence."
Bullshit, that's why there's a Credit Union Network that covers the entire goddamned nation, with over 22,000 locations, right?
Re:I did (Score:5, Interesting)
Ya. Don't hold onto that dream too tight. I have a little story to tell you...
I was a Wells Fargo customer. I was moderately satisfied with them, except when they screwed with me..
I had to take a trip up to Boston.. Fly up, rent a car, drive an hour, and spend a week working. No problem. When I got there, I caught the shuttle bus to the rental car parking lot. When I got there, they said "Sure, we'd rent you a car, but your card has been declined." I had plenty of money *in* the account, so I figured a quick call to the bank would fix it... Business account, business traveler, they'll get it fixed right up, right?
I spent the following hour on the phone, where they explained to me that there was possible fraudulent activity relating to my card. They couldn't tell me *what* the activity was, just that they had cancelled my card.
They did kindly tell me that I could go to any Wells Fargo branch, and get a temporary credit card. I asked which one was walking distance from Boston's Logan airport, as I had $20 in my pocket, and no car to drive anywhere, because I *couldn't* rent a car, because they cancelled my card. They didn't answer.
A few more phone calls, and becoming gradually pissed off, I managed to arrange for a ride. A coworker drove the hour *to* the airport, so we could drive the hour *back* to work. (Sorry B'). He also spotted me some cash, so I'd have more than $20 to my name for the week while I was there.
I am one of the many who had financial problems for an extended period. As it turns out, credit card companies really don't like it if you don't pay them for over a year. That bank card, and the cash in my pocket, was all I had.
I finally did find out where the closest branch is. 106 miles, or 2 hours, each way [google.com].
For those of you who aren't familiar with the concept of flying across the country to work on site for a week, they kind of appreciate it if you are there to work. Telling them, "Sorry, I need to spend about 5 hours of the 8 hour work day, driving to a bank in *the next state*, to fix some mental deficiency they're having, just won't go over very well..
I managed on the borrowed cash, and finally made it home, late Friday night.
So, I had the opportunity to get more pissed off until bright and sunshiny Monday morning. I went straight down to the closest branch, and asked for details on the fraud. They told me, "Oh, there was no fraud. We mailed you a new bank card. Since you never activated the new one, we cancelled the old one."
I tried to explain the absolute failure of logic in that one. Did they not see airplane reservations, rental car reservations, hotel reservations? They finally told me where they mailed the card to. Not my residence, where I get my statements, and the only address they claim to have on file for me. Not my previous residence. They mailed it to a place I hadn't lived for years.
It then took them about an hour to figure out how to issue the temporary card. They issued it, but it didn't work. So they tried again. and again. They told me I would have my new card, with my name on it and all, in 7 to 14 days.
14 days later.
I opened a new account at a local credit union.
21 days later....
I got the bank card and checks for the credit union.
24 days later...
I got my new card from Wells Fargo. I couldn't activate it.
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Often enough that I've held accounts at every major bank you can name, because there are no truly "national" banks, they're all regional in scope. This even though I've never had my direct-deposit sent to one of them. Actually there's one megabank I've never bothered with: Bank of America.
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N.B.: I also discovered that many American Express offices have actual banking facilities in them, and provide all these services as well. That cut down on my bank-hopping some, but not a lot, since AmEx offices are not as common as you'd think.
Re:I did (Score:5, Insightful)
Thinking about "switching" (Score:2)
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This is an important sentimentality to reflect on. Banks and other businesses count on emotion and habit to keep our business even when their quality suffers. Does the BofA you see today reflect the values of Seafirst? Would your parents still recommend that you do business there? If you are feeling sentimental, frame your debit card after you close the account.
Min-maxing one's credit score (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Thinking about "switching" (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been with credit unions for several years now; I keep around $5K in BoA for convenience sake, but keep most of my liquid cash in credit unions. My credit unions don't insist on treating me like a criminal by fingerprinting me if I dare cash a check, they don't dehumanize services by refusing to let me talk to decision makers, don't nickel-and-dime me for services like BoA does. The down side to a credit union is there are fewer branches and fewer ATMs, so if I am out of town and need cash to dine or shop somewhere that doesn't accept AmEx, I have my BoA account for convenience. However, I'm seriously considering punting BoA altogether and just carry more cash instead.
One huge, huge benefit of credit unions is the ability to talk to decision makers, and have them check business and personal references if you have limited credit history. About ten years ago when I started my business, I made a huge, huge mistake: I closed my personal credit accounts, and built up corporate credit. I did not have a single credit line for personal use, and I needed a loan. So, I went to the banks and was turned down for a loan by several banks (citing the lack of credit history - if you go without using credit for 7 years, your credit record is "scolled out"), and couldn't talk to a decision maker. So, I went to a credit union and they turned me down at first, so I worked my way up the food chain and talked to decision makers. They checked my personal and business references, and I was able to get financing. I ended up moving a decent chunk of funds to that credit union.
Now, interesting thing: one of the banks I went to has financed several cars for one of my friends. He has horrible, horrible credit; he has had a home forclosed on, three vehicles repossessed, and they granted him another car loan shortly before I went to speak with that same rep. His interest rate sucked, but he was able to get financing. I asked about it, mentioning my friend by name and asking why with his irresponsible history he was granted financing, but with my responsible history I couldn't. His response? "He has credit. You don't." So I asked "So, you are telling me a bad credit history is better than no credit history?" His response was yes. That just pissed me off - and that kind of thinking is exactly why so many banks have needed bailout courtesy of us taxpayers.
Fuck banks. We never should have bailed them out.
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I'm in Argentina. 6 years ago I was trying to get a credit card - I had been working (independent, not as an employee, but as a registered taxpayer) for over 2 years, and had a savings account with money, was paying bills using their online service, etc.
I was turned down by EVERY bank, citing I didn't have any credit history, so I couldn't get a credit card. They all told me if I was an employee of a company that was using the bank to pay the salaries, they would give me a credit card, but otherwise, I need
Are the sheep finally waking? (Score:5, Insightful)
I last had a B of A account when I was 19. They had the highest credit card rates of any major bank in the country. I shopped around for a day and found a bank with an interest rate 7 points lower than theirs. I moved accounts and a few years later found a credit union with a rate 3 pts lower than the new bank. So I cut my rate from 19.8 to 9.9 just by not being too lazy to shop around. For some reason however, 19 out of 20 people I tell this story to have ump-teen superficial reasons why switching banks would be too much trouble. The truth of it is, they are complacent and lazy.
There shouldn't be even a single person complaining about the bank bailouts or Wall Street who still has an account with these money pimps. If you do business with them, you are an enabler and partially responsible for the bank meltdown of '08.
Re:Are the sheep finally waking? (Score:5, Insightful)
I pay 0% on my credit cards. The credit card bills are automatically taken out of my checking account at the end of the month.
Re:Are the sheep finally waking? (Score:4, Informative)
You pay 3-5% on your purchases, and depending on where and how, you might be paying considerably more. You just see it as wrapped up in the price.
It's true that you are already ahead, but you would be surprised what happens when you deal with businesses and ask for a "cash discount".
I get them all the time. On medical co-pays, parts purchases, etc. Of course with big name faceless places like major grocery stores you can forget it.
Re:They take one (Score:4, Informative)
No. Amex has one of the WORSE credit card rates - their rates are consistently higher than Visa or Mastercard. Amex sees themselves as a "premier" card and want to ensure their card is only accepted at places that are more lifestyle-related. So Visa/MC is accepted everywhere, and Amex in fewer places but often in places like restaurants and hotels and the like.
A small retailer wanting Amex can easily be dinged 5% for Amex, versus 2-3% for Visa/MC. Plus the per-transaction fees are higher for them.
As for cash discount - it only really works for mom and pop shops - where handling cash is cheaper than credit cards. But larger businesses can start having significant cash handling charges - from extra training of cashiers (all the cash handling needs to be taught to ensure the balance comes out right) to simply having to deposit those huge wads of cash at a bank (depending on the store, it may mean an armored car has to be hired which can cost $1000 easily. If you're depositing $30k, that's the 3% credit card fee right there).
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Not really. The available credit is about equal to one months paycheck.
I don't think so. I've never felt the urge to spend more than I can easily afford, and I doubt that will ever change.
The bank still gets paid through the credit card fee though. I'll admit I keep the credit card becau
Re:Are the sheep finally waking? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Costal Credit Union [costal24.com] has "public" membership if you get a North Carolina Consumers Council Membership for $18. Not completely free but anyone can qualify for that. They have a variety of shared ATMs in the area according to their location maps that you could do a majority of your banking with, and if you needed to visit an actual location, there isn't one all that far away.
Really? I did this last year! (Score:2)
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They may have dropped the $5 fee (Score:5, Informative)
Be careful! (Score:5, Informative)
I'm probably not the only one (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I'm probably not the only one (Score:5, Insightful)
I had heard of credit unions before, but I didn't know what they were and I didn't have sufficient interest to find out. I only researched it after this Bank of America incident. Now that I know, it's obvious to me that a credit union is better.
Love credit unions...but beware of any financial institution. The reason is that I had my account at a small county credit union in NW Arizona which had worse fees and customer service than any of the big banks. Found out after I relocated to another state and another credit union that their balance sheets looked like something out of a slasher movie with so much red ink with about 40%+ default rate on their loans/mortgages. With my current statewide credit union...they had around a three per-cent default rate on their loans/mortgages with more than triple the amount of branches all over the state.. Seeing this...I understand why they charged arbitrary fees and were more than willing to make sure they would do a B of A any chance they could get.
Understand that any financial institution can screw you royally...but at least most credit unions will treat you better than most banks. Just do your research beforehand. If you can't get the answers you want...there are plenty of other credit unions who will be more than happy to help you.
BoA backed out (Score:3, Informative)
http://message.bankofamerica.com/debitcard/
Re:BoA backed out (Score:5, Informative)
They are still evil. Putting their billing cycle on a 28-day schedule and their automatic payment option on a calendar schedule (i.e., money gets withdrawn on the same day every month, even if that's after the due date of their billing cycle) is just one of many examples I could give you of the way BoA tries to rip off their customers.
Re:BoA backed out (Score:4, Interesting)
Others noted they will just roll it into other fees you won't notice as much. And instead of leaving this at 3, it gets up to +5.
This is why most of my moderation points are spent on '-1 overrated' these days. You're not wrong, you're just not adding anything past existing comments. I would allow +3 for those people who read at +3, and not mod you down for +4 if someone thought you deserved it, but +5 is, well, overrated.
What do CUs do with your money? (Score:2)
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No. Credit unions operate the way banks are supposed to, by keeping your money on deposit and investing it in the form of loans. They pay out a lower rate of interest (or "dividend" in CU parlance) on your deposited money than they charge on the money they lend out. So they make a bit of a profit (or "surplus" in not-for-profit parlance), but instead of raking in huge amounts via high interest and sneaky little fees and giving it to shareholders, they reinvest the money back into the credit union. That's
Awesome! (Score:2)
I gotta say, I'm impressed. I just hope they all go after the cell phone companies next.
Saturday? (Score:2)
Don't they know the Banks are closed on Saturday!
Foiled again!
I dumped my bank over a decade ago (Score:2)
I joined a Credit Union when I was 12 (Score:4, Interesting)
I joined a Credit Union when I was 12, and that was a long time ago, indeed. I have never looked at a bank account set of terms and conditions that was not absolutely offensive and repulsive when compared to the Credit Union.
Once, about 20 years ago, when I lived in Miami and the nearest branch of my Credit Union was in Tampa, I opened a local account to be able to deposit my paychecks locally. That lasted about 6 months, during which time they charged fee after fee, and posted a $20 "computer error" in their favor to my account. Computer error, in 1991, from a bank? The computer made a mistake adding a column of numbers? "Sorry sir, we'll fix that." Yeah, you do that, and give me all my cash, NOW.
I did this a couple years ago (Score:3)
When the moveyourmoney.info campaign was in full swing. Bank of America flat out lied to me about my mortgage, defrauded me on escrow fees, and conned me on a car loan. It was so bad I wrote my congressman and senators as well as the BBB.I went so far as to refinance my house to sever all ties to that organization. For some reason, business culture from this country has gone from "take care of our customers" to "squeeze those suckers for every drop of blood, then if they pack up and leave try to kiss and make up."
Another good word about Credit Unions here! (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd long heard the advice about Credit Unions being a better bet than a bank, but honestly, I felt switching might be more hassle than it was worth. I knew Credit Unions had membership restrictions, for starters. (For instance, Navy Federal Credit Union pretty much requires you're either in the armed forces, or a family member of someone who is. That doesn't help me.)
I always tried to bank with smaller, local banks though, instead of any of the "mega banks". That strategy worked pretty well for me when the bigger ones went through a phase of eliminating "totally free checking" accounts, some years ago.
However, I tried to get refinanced on my car loan a couple years ago and found none of the banks were willing to help me at all -- even the one I have direct deposit with from my work, and hold both a checking and a savings account with. My rate was WAY too high and I wasn't asking the world ... just an opportunity to get a sane interest rate. That's when I decided to take a closer look at Credit Unions. I discovered one of the bigger ones had 2 convenient branches near my house AND was partnered up with most of the others in town, so you could use ATM machines belonging to ANY of them free of charge. Their only rules for becoming a member seemed to be based on you living in a zip code somewhat geographically close to their branches. A day later (since they had to have the bank manager review my situation and he was out for the day), I had my loan refinanced at a rate a full 10 percentage points lower than I was paying!
I switched my checking account over to a second Credit Union not long after that, and was paid over $100 in bonuses just to switch!
I hated my credit union (Score:5, Informative)
They had a credit union at my last job, and I decided to use it, in part because I was going to be buying a house soon, and I assumed that a credit union would offer a better deal than a "regular" mortgage company.
I didn't find anything about the credit union that was better than what I was used to at regular banks, and when I applied for a mortgage, I discovered they had a "demand feature", which I had never seen before (this was my third time buying a house). For those who don't know, a demand feature means that the credit union could, at any time and for any or no reason, demand that I pay the mortgage in full.
When I asked them about it, they assured me that "everyone did it" and that they wouldn't actually do that even if they could and that I should just trust them and not worry about it.
I immediately dropped them and went to a regular mortgage company, which did not have a "demand feature" and offered a better rate. I later learned from other employees that the credit union had "called" mortgages of other employees when they missed a payment on their linked credit card.
So, don't assume that a credit union is better than a bank or other financial organization. Some may be, but others aren't. Caveat emptor!
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All loans can be claimed in full at any time by the bank
No, they can't. This simply is not a feature of most loans.
Missing Information (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Federal government passes law that banks with over $10b in assets may not charge merchants as much as all banks have been charging for debit transactions.
2. Larger banks (the only ones affected by said law) impose a monthly, instead of per-transaction, fee to make up the difference, while smaller banks continue to charge merchants the same amount they were before.
3. Outrage is expressed by the uninformed and pundits who have an axe to grind, such as Consumers Union.
4. Larger banks lose customers to smaller banks, who will continue to charge merchants the same amount for debit transactions.
5. Larger banks reverse position on monthly fee but increase other fees in order to indirectly make up the difference.
Who exactly won? Thanks Dick Durban!
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Who exactly won? Thanks Dick Durban!
I would say the consumers and small banks have won. Based on the 2008 financial mess, I think it's safe to say that having money distributed across many small banks is better than having to depend on the financial decisions of a few giant banks.
Re:Missing Information (Score:4, Informative)
I'll just reply to you, since you're the only non-coward to reply. I agree that having a bunch of "too big to fail" banks is a bad idea, but I disagree the terminology: nothing is too big to fail. If the banks had failed, other banks would have bought up their assets, the FDIC would have made up the difference to account holders, and the people who made the bad decisions at those banks would be looking for new jobs.
Instead, the Feds bailed them out, incentivizing their behavior. Worse, they made it profitable. In the future, those banks and probably others will do the same thing, because they expect the Feds to bail them out again.
On the other hand, the bank "bailout" was forced on the banks [businessinsider.com] as a way for the Executive Branch to make the banks look bad, because people will continue to talk about those greedy banks even though they had already paid back the loans.
However, this debit card transaction fee fiasco is not going to affect large banks at all. They will continue to make the same amount, because they are forced by their shareholders to do so. So every time the government artificially intervenes like this, the bank's customers will feel the pinch in the form of higher fees. And they won't move to "smaller" banks because they need national coverage, or the various other reasons that large banks are advantageous for their customers.
Don't think that I'm on the side of larger banks. I'm not. The entire consolidation of US banks was started by various assholes including J. P. Morgan, the Rockefellers, and the Rothschilds, who started rumors that Knickerbocker Trust would fail [voluntarysociety.org], and then sold it short. When it finally occurred, they stepped in and bought the failed trusts and other banks for pennies, even getting government loans to do it. They controlled the press (by owning most newspapers), so to this day are talked about as the savior of the financial system rather than the cause of the crisis they profited from.
The long and short is that the government needs to stop fucking with the financial system. If they hadn't assisted in the creation of a central bank, and assisted in the bailout of the "too big to fail" banks and every other smaller thing that they've done in between, we might not be in the mess we're in. While Dick Durban's intentions might be to help smaller banks (and it's more likely that his intentions are to *look* like he wants to help smaller banks), it will end up backfiring in some way. Because that's how these things happen. Every government intervention ends up backfiring in some way, and it always leads to increased costs in the long run. Recent examples off the top of my head are Sarbanes-Oxley and the "Affordable Care Act".
USAA (Score:5, Informative)
Even those with no relation or connection to the US Armed Forces are eligible for certain banking products, so if you're looking to drop your mega-bank I absolutely urge you to check out USAA's offerings. The lack of branches outside of San Antonio, TX can be a bit disappointing when you need to deposit cash, but the customer service is wonderful and I've never really even had a need to do anything in-person, anyway.
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They also offer auto/home/rental insurance with some good multi policy discounts.
Not just credit unions, small internet banks good (Score:3)
I do most of my banking at a small online bank. They have pretty good interest rates (much better than most banks), reimburse a few ATM fees a month (since realistically it's the only way I can get money from the account with them not having a local branch) and have free online bill payment for as many bills as I care to pay - a model I greatly prefer because then I control when payments go out.
So don't just consider credit unions, look around at internet banks - they can be every bit as good.
Switched from Wells Fargo to pscu (Score:3)
OTH, Public Service Credit Union invests into American businesses. Why? Because they are local. In addition, they are trying harder. I like that. Now, if I could just get them to get off windows and move to *nix so that I do not have to worry about China, Russian, Al Qaeda, etc stealing the money directly.
Some clarifications about credit unions (Score:5, Informative)
I am on the board of a credit union. Credit unions must make a profit or they will die. They must have some fee structure to offset costs of members who are expensive to service. The idea is that fees should be minimized to the extent that the CU can run a healthy business in accordance with its mission.
Since it is a non-profit, the board is unpaid. We are members who volunteer our time. We must make decisions in the interest of the membership as a whole and that means working with the executive staff on decisions related to which services we can provide to the members and how those services will be paid for.
The distinguishing difference between a credit union and a bank is that banks can raise capital in the open markets by issuing shares, issuing debt, or taking on risky bets in the form of loans and investments.
Credit unions, on the other hand, can maintain capital only through profits from loans, investments, and certain income like fees and interchange fees. The investment side is tightly controlled. Investments are boring - bonds, CDs, money markets. The best income is from loans.
There are good credit unions and bad ones. When the bad ones go under, the credit unions are collectively assessed via the NCUSIF (in most cases) to make the the depositors whole. Or the NCUA works with the failing credit union to merge them into a healthier one. But we are all collectively responsible for each other in a small way -- yet we compete against each other and banks too.
Even though I've been with the same credit union for 22 years (and now on the BOD for 3 so far), I don't label "credit unions = good, banks = bad." I also have an account with ING Direct and had excellent customer service - all by phone, mail and email - for a mortgage a few years ago.
Do your homework and figure out what you need and talk to people you trust. Don't think that you are necessarily constrained by a credit union. You might not be. It depends.
consumers? (Score:5, Informative)
Why has that word replaced customers?
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Great plan, as long as you don't mind that most people wouldn't survive a full blown revolution. Our society has become too fragile to keep the daily flow of necessities going in the middle of a revolution.
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Re:welcome the new bank (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:welcome the new bank (Score:5, Informative)
The difference is that credit unions are explicitly not-for-profit. Their main goal is not to maximize shareholder value, but to maximize member usefulness. That makes a really big difference.
Yes, but... (Score:3)
Their main goal is not to maximize shareholder value, but to maximize member usefulness.
I was with a CU for a few years when they sent me a "check" over a few thousand dollars in the mail with a letter stating "you earned it". Cashing the check would have given me instant credit with very poor conditions (and at the same time it took them forever to clear my checks). I found that quite dishonest, not something I'd expect from a credit union that doesn't go for maximal profit but for usefulness.
Within a month I was with a different credit union. Lesson learned: Not-for-profit isn't enough.
Re:welcome the new bank (Score:4, Interesting)
I've never heard of that happening to a credit union. I doubt the members would stand for it in most cases. Why would they want their cost of banking going up?
On the other hand, I've seen a couple of cases where CUs got big enough and started acting like banks. CEFCU (formerly the Caterpillar Credit Union) in IL is one of the biggest in the country and nearly 20 years ago they started doing that crap where they charged extra fees to people who only had small balances. It pissed me off enough that I closed my account with them, despite being way beyond the minimum balance requirements.
A few years later when debit cards were just starting to become popular, TexIns (formerly the Texas Instruments Credit Union) started pushing debit cards on all of their members via the combo ATM/Debit card trick - unless you kicked up a fuss your ATM card was automatically enabled for debit usage too. My understanding is that such pushes were actually widespread in the CU community and usually accompanied with a bunch of evil PR to convince members it was actually a good thing. Anyone who was paying attention knew that debit cards were a bad deal for practically everyone -- a big fee generator with far less consumer protections than credit cards.
So it isn't easy, in fact it may even be illegal to formally co-opt a CU in the way the GP described, but sometimes they do end up being managed by execs with a bankster mindset.
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So it isn't easy, in fact it may even be illegal to formally co-opt a CU in the way the GP described, but sometimes they do end up being managed by execs with a bankster mindset.
When has "illegal" been a sure stop? If the executives, under whatever influence, decide to appoint a consultant to put forth a conversion proposal, and the members are persuaded to go with the conversion (which is in the consulants' interest), within the rules of the CU's charter, conversion can happen legally, ultimately at a
Re:welcome the new bank (Score:5, Informative)
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The narrative of the last 30 years has been: deregulation, things get much worse fo the lower and middle class, bankers convince people that the problem is still too much regulation, more deregulation, things get even worse, bankers blame the remaining regulation, more deregulation still, things get even worse, and on and on.
Now that doesn't mean that all regulation is good, but the only thing worse than bad regulation on the finance sector is no regulation at all.
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Oh man, I hear you. Those poor big banks, right? The ones that get to gamble with the economy, get bailed out by taxpayers, and continue to post record annual bonuses to their executives. Retail stores, restaurants, and gas stations all around the country sure have those big banks
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Or they could, you know, be happy with making a little less money and giving their customers a better deal. The scales are so tilted toward the corporations and away from the customers/consumers that I struggle to have any sympathy for a bank or any other business that has to make a little less profit so that their customers can not be exploited. People are waking up and realizing that the scare tactic/threats from businesses saying they'll shut down if they're a tiny bit less profitable are pure bluff. If
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The new $0.21 per transaction limit on debit card fees are still about three times what it actually costs to process the transaction. It's electronic transfer of funds. In theory the cost should approach zero. What little cost there is is partly to do with having to produce a physical plastic card, the human paperwork to set up the account, and the occasional odd charge or fraud, when a human has to get involved.
So cry me a river that they can't charge more than three times cost on debit transactions. M
Mod parent up. (Score:3)
The banks are NOT "losing money" because of these rules. They are still turning a profit. A huge profit.
They ARE "losing profit".
That being, they are NOT making as huge a profit as they could be making if they were allowed to charge whatever the market had to bear.
Here's an easy example:
"Losing money" is when you build a game console for $100 and sell it for $50. You LOSE $50 on each transaction.
The banks are NOT losing any money on these transactions. Each transaction is still TURNING A PROFIT for the bank
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