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NSA Internet Spying Sparks Race To Create Offshore Havens For Data Privacy

samzenpus posted about a year ago | from the keeping-a-lid-on-it dept.

Privacy 166

schwit1 writes "Some European leaders are renewing calls for a 'euro cloud,' in which consumer data could be shared within Europe but not outside the region. Brazil is fast-tracking a vote on a once-dormant bill that could require that data about Brazilians be stored on servers in the country. And India plans to ban government employees from using email services from Google and Yahoo Inc. It is too soon to tell if a major shift is under way. But the Information Technology and Innovation Foundation estimates that fallout from revelations about NSA activities could cost Silicon Valley up to $35 billion in annual revenue, much of it from lost overseas business. A survey conducted this summer by the Cloud Security Alliance, an industry group, found that 56% of non-U.S. members said security concerns made it less likely that they would use U.S.-based cloud services. Ten percent said they had canceled a contract. Even some companies that seek to profit from fears about U.S. snooping acknowledge that law-enforcement agencies in other countries want to catch up with Washington's capabilities. 'In the long run, there won't be any difference between what the U.S. or Germany or France or the U.K. is doing,' says Roberto Valerio, whose German cloud-storage company, CloudSafe GmbH, reports a 25% rise in business since the NSA revelations. 'At the end of the day, some agency will spy on you,' he says."

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Government is shutting down. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44991749)

So none of this matters. It is the only way to get rid of Obamacare.

Re:Government is shutting down. (4, Insightful)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | about a year ago | (#44992775)

Will they shutdown the FBI, CIA and NSA? The DHS?

It's not a "Free Country", or even a plausible republic, with Secret Police.

Re:Government is shutting down. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44993221)

I'm pretty sure they won't shut down the IRS. :-)

Consolidation in the Cloud? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44991751)

The answer is not consolidation but more decentralization.

Re:Consolidation in the Cloud? (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44991975)

My cloud plan: servers welded shut and housed in 10000 yurts scattered across Mongolia. Network bandwidth may be a problem at first but I'm having some success in my experiments with ponies carrying micro-SD cards.

Re:Consolidation in the Cloud? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44993329)

I like your plan, are you accepting investment capital at this time?!?!?

Re:Consolidation in the Cloud? (0)

gmuslera (3436) | about a year ago | (#44992953)

Countries should give facilities to people to have their own servers in their own home connections, the cloud should be not obligatory to host my own mail/web server, some personal services for my cellphones, or descentralized services like Diaspora. It may not do a lot of difference in US, but in other countries could not force their information to go through points of NSA control. That, and adding/supporting some optional anonimization layers for more or less anonymous browsing (proxies, Tor, Hyperboria, etc) as in some points you must reach the monitored internet.

Re:Consolidation in the Cloud? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44993057)

Countries should give facilities to people to have their own servers in their own home connections...

Who's going to provide the funding for that? Did you just volunteer?

Re:Consolidation in the Cloud? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44993243)

Who's going to provide the funding for that?

The people operating their own servers in their own home connections?

Re:Consolidation in the Cloud? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44993281)

I was responding to the comment that "countries should give facilities.." But maybe I misunderstood.

Re:Consolidation in the Cloud? (0)

cayenne8 (626475) | about a year ago | (#44993353)

Countries should give facilities to people to have their own servers in their own home connections, the cloud should be not obligatory to host my own mail/web server, some personal services for my cellphones, or descentralized services like Diaspora. It may not do a lot of difference in US, but in other countries could not force their information to go through points of NSA control. That, and adding/supporting some optional anonimization layers for more or less anonymous browsing (proxies, Tor, Hyperboria, etc) as in some points you must reach the monitored internet.

Err...there's nothing stopping people now from setting up their own servers at home (email, web, wordpress, etc)....

You might possibly need to get a 'business' account from your ISP and pay a couple $$'s more, but the internet was built as it is, so that every computer hooked to it can be a peer with any other computer on it.

Get with and ISP for the proper TOS for allowing you to host, but that's 100% possible today and has been from day 1 of the internet.

I have mine with a local cable company, $70/mo, and about 10up/10down, with a decent SLA. I run as many servers as I wish, no ports blocked...etc.

doesn't europe spy as well? (1)

alen (225700) | about a year ago | (#44991757)

a euro data hub accessible only to european intelligence agencies who will happily share data with their NSA buddies

even then the NSA was tapping under sea fiber cables 20 years ago. before that we were sucking transmissions out of the sky

Re:doesn't europe spy as well? (5, Insightful)

CRCulver (715279) | about a year ago | (#44991917)

Industrial espionage is a big concern. It has been known since at least 2001 (when Echelon was widely covered in the press and the European Parliament opened an investigation) that the NSA has intercepted communications among European companies and then handed over business secrets to their American competitors. Even if it wouldn't protect individuals' privacy, the idea is that a European cloud would protect European businesses.

Re:doesn't europe spy as well? (1)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about a year ago | (#44992217)

...the idea is that a European cloud would protect European businesses.

Only the biggest of the big, those businesses that can place their puppets into their respective parliaments. For the rest? Let them eat cake!

Re:doesn't europe spy as well? (1)

alen (225700) | about a year ago | (#44992293)

in the early 90's there was talk in the US press about french and european spying on US companies, especially to get an advantage for airbus

Re:doesn't europe spy as well? (5, Interesting)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about a year ago | (#44992597)

And China has been accused of it many, many times - they barely even bother to hide it. Every country does it, then acts outraged when all the others do too.

Re:doesn't europe spy as well? (5, Interesting)

Balinares (316703) | about a year ago | (#44991979)

Countries like France and UK, yeah, absolutely. Germany... is slightly more touchy about issues pertaining to surveillance and the general topic of totalitarianism, for some reason.

Iceland overthrew its government when said government wouldn't jail bankers. If Iceland says they ain't going to spy on people because fuck that, I would lean toward cautiously trusting them.

Re:doesn't europe spy as well? (3, Interesting)

Bigbutt (65939) | about a year ago | (#44992441)

Yea, we had to have a special network connection through the American Embassy in France so we could exchange e-mail without the French reading the emails. We put it into place when the French would ask about something that was only disclosed in the email.

[John]

Re:doesn't europe spy as well? (3, Interesting)

V for Vendetta (1204898) | about a year ago | (#44993253)

Germany... is slightly more touchy about issues pertaining to surveillance and the general topic of totalitarianism, for some reason.

Yes, we (the German people) are. No, we (the German government) are not. The later will happily share whatever they acquire with its "friends" in Europe and overseas.

Technically both NSA and BND/Verfassungschutz are not spying on their own people ... but if the BND spies on Americans and the NSA spies on Germans and both swap their findings, all laws were respected.

I'm not making this weird shit up, that's actually how our government argued in this affair. Granted the wording they used was of course more not-so-obvious politian-speak. But that's what they said.

Re:doesn't europe spy as well? (4, Interesting)

dgatwood (11270) | about a year ago | (#44992065)

Pretty much. Governments have long recognized that the existence of a decentralized packet-switched network makes spying on its citizens harder. Therefore, their goal is to break the Internet, splitting it off into lots of little regional networks that don't fully talk to one another, requiring companies to store data on their citizens in country-specific servers so that it is easier to keep track of everything that's happening, etc. Government would love to go all the way back to the circuit-switched days of mainframe computing if they could.

This is why we, as citizens of the world, must unite to demand more reasonable policies, starting with laws that fine companies an exorbitant amount of money for sharing information about their citizens with foreign governments without a warrant from the citizens' governments. If Google were hit with a million dollar fine every time it obeyed an NSL without getting a court order from whatever country the target was from, Google would then be forced to sue the federal government to reclaim those damages, forcing the U.S. government to act like a proper player on the world stage instead of a world-class thug that bullies its way into whatever information it wants.

Re:doesn't europe spy as well? (1)

infolation (840436) | about a year ago | (#44992225)

Europe is already covered by the European data protection directive, recently updated in 2012 and 2013.

The directive, essentially, makes the whole of Europe a data enclave, out of which data can only be passed if it's subject to the same laws as would apply within that enclave.

Third countries is the term used in legislation to designate countries outside the European Union. Personal data may only be transferred to third countries if that country provides an adequate level of protection. Some exceptions to this rule are provided, for instance when the controller himself can guarantee that the recipient will comply with the data protection rules.

We (UK personally) already have the data protection legislation in place. The law is very clear on what's allowed. But the laws just aren't being followed.

Re:doesn't europe spy as well? (2)

tchdab1 (164848) | about a year ago | (#44992339)

Yes - data safes are worthless when the spy agency has access to all the I/O pipes.

Re:doesn't europe spy as well? (2)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about a year ago | (#44992625)

That particular problem can be solved with simple encryption. No need for the fancy stuff - simple symmetric will do.

Re:doesn't europe spy as well? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44993071)

DING, DING, DING. We have a winner.

Yes the Europeans spy on their citizens and informational transactions in and out of the country. These results are then shared with the NSA so if you try to hide you data outside of the United States then you become even more of a target than if you had kept your information within the US.

Ya' just plain cain't win for losing.

I've read this book... (3, Informative)

CryptoJones (565561) | about a year ago | (#44991769)

it was called Cryptonomicon.

Re:I've read this book... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992755)

it was called Cryptonomicon.

And it seemed like a good idea then, too.

So, U.S. domestic spying won't last long, then? (1)

tibit (1762298) | about a year ago | (#44991773)

The commercial interests, big commercial interests are negatively affected by this spying. It's going to hit some bottom lines big time pretty soon. If we're to believe in the strong arm of lobbying, domestic spying should end any day now, right? Riiight :)

Re:So, U.S. domestic spying won't last long, then? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44991953)

I don't know, but anything that hurts the corporate arm of the US government is good by me. Suffer.

Re:So, U.S. domestic spying won't last long, then? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992571)

Meh. I don't see why any corporate interests are being hurt. There's nothing special about US corporations or the NSA, this shit goes on all over the planet. The politicians are just using it as an excuse to further their political agendas.

Some European leaders are renewing calls for a 'euro cloud,' in which consumer data could be shared within Europe but not outside the region.

HAHAHAHA ya right, so the GCHQ can just shoot the details over to the NSA, assuming they wouldn't already have their claws sunk into such a 'solution'.

Brazil is fast-tracking a vote on a once-dormant bill that could require that data about Brazilians be stored on servers in the country.

Which will do absolutely nothing to anybody who doesn't have their shit IN Brazil already. You can't pass a law in Brazil and expect anyone in the rest of the world to pay attention. Keep in mind if people in Brazil want to access a foreign site, that site does NOT have to comply with Brazil's laws.

And India plans to ban government employees from using email services from Google and Yahoo Inc.

Wrong. India is planning on barring government employees from using ANY service other than the official Indian Government service.

fallout from revelations about NSA activities could cost Silicon Valley up to $35 billion in annual revenue, much of it from lost overseas business

Not likely. There isn't anything unique about Silicon Valley based businesses. The privacy concerns are universal across the planet, companies are not going to abandon US cloud services in favor of Russian, Chinese, European or other countries' services because those other services bear just as much, if not more, risk when it comes to Agency data snooping.
If anyone is going to be hurt, it's "cloud" services in general. Which doesn't make me cry any, as such solutions are fundamentally risky and people need to stop treating them as some kind of magic solution to their IT woes.

Re:So, U.S. domestic spying won't last long, then? (1)

stanlyb (1839382) | about a year ago | (#44992681)

Then why Google has a special team for dealing with this "non-existent" lost business? And Microsoft too? And Amazon too? And Yahoo too?
I KNOW, i know, they are stupid, not so smart as you are (or more likely, you think you are...)

Re:So, U.S. domestic spying won't last long, then? (1)

Guppy06 (410832) | about a year ago | (#44993075)

They're not hurt by the spying but by the disclosure. If these California companies didn't like the spying itself, you'd have seen them pour money into unseating Dianne Feinstein last year.

Expect instead to see these companies to lobby for feel-good measures that are simply aimed at making the story "go away."

Re:So, U.S. domestic spying won't last long, then? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44993357)

More than likely the US government will just take more tax dollars from citizens and cut these big companies special tax breaks to make up for the lost revenue. So we will be paying more taxes to support the results of NSA spying on us. Cool huh?

Sealand... (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44991789)

Is it still up for sale?

Re:Sealand... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44991843)

My thoughts similarly. When the headline mentioned "offshore havens", I thought the story was going to be about servers in international waters. But reading TFS, it simply means "not in the US".

Re:Sealand... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44991951)

Of course it means 'not in the US'. Everyone knows that the US is the only country in the world that spies on its citizens and other countries. Therefore, you move them out of the US, spying stops!

Re:Sealand... (1)

stanlyb (1839382) | about a year ago | (#44992697)

If you pass through Bronx and get raped, shame on rapist.
If you continue to do it, day after day, year after year.....(do i have to say the obvious?)

Expect competitors for all big IT US companies (4, Insightful)

lehphyro (1465921) | about a year ago | (#44991807)

Before all this, people didn't even think about creating a real competitor for Google or Amazon. Now we can expect some real options for these services soon. This is good news for everyone, thank you USA!

Re:Expect competitors for all big IT US companies (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44991937)

Before all this, people didn't even think about creating a real competitor for Google or Amazon. Now we can expect some real options for these services soon. This is good news for everyone, thank you USA!

Working for a Europe-based Dropbox competitor, we have seen a truly massive increase in interest and sales after the NSA revelations.

Re:Expect competitors for all big IT US companies (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992777)

Before all this, people didn't even think about creating a real competitor for Google or Amazon. Now we can expect some real options for these services soon. This is good news for everyone, thank you USA!

Working for a Europe-based Dropbox competitor, we have seen a truly massive increase in interest and sales after the NSA revelations.

That's because people are idiots. Not only would a European-based competitor NOT prevent the NSA and GCHQ from getting at your data, it's not going to prevent any other agency from getting at it either.

Avoiding US-based services is nothing more than a bunch of political bullshit. If you're worried about the security of your data, the solution is not to stop using US-based services, the solution is to stop using cloud services in general and run things yourself. Shifting a data center from one country you dislike to another country which is going to do the same damn thing doesn't solve any of your problems.

Re:Expect competitors for all big IT US companies (2, Insightful)

mrspoonsi (2955715) | about a year ago | (#44993189)

The big difference is...if a company is based in the USA the NSA can ask for practically anything, backdoors, etc and that company has to comply or shutdown.

I do not think this is true for a company say for example based in Portugal (or Andora, or some other EU country which is not big on spying), there is perhaps no such legal framework forcing companies to insert backdoors.

Re:Expect competitors for all big IT US companies (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44993475)

The big difference is...if a company is based in the USA the NSA can ask for practically anything, backdoors, etc and that company has to comply or shutdown. I do not think this is true for a company say for example based in Portugal (or Andora, or some other EU country which is not big on spying), there is perhaps no such legal framework forcing companies to insert backdoors.

This is true. We only have to give up customer data when handed specific official court orders (specific for the customer and case in question). It might be hard for Americans to believe after all their NSA revelations, but our law enforcement simply don't have similar blanket powers to request access without going through due process. We actually give customers a guarantee on this, and this guarantee is not written in a clever way to give NSA type loopholes.

Re:Expect competitors for all big IT US companies (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992427)

Before all this, people didn't even think about creating a real competitor for Google or Amazon.

China:
http://bidu.com/ [bidu.com]
http://aliexpress.com/ [aliexpress.com]

Russia:
http://yandex.ru/ [yandex.ru]

Just because you don't know of them, does not mean they are not there or not popular.

Re:Expect competitors for all big IT US companies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992857)

Too right! Expect more business for hushmail, a Canadian encrypted email service. Not to mention encrypted personal VPN services like witopia or hidemyass that let you pop out into the Internet from another nation.

Re:Expect competitors for all big IT US companies (2)

jeti (105266) | about a year ago | (#44993167)

A non-US competitor to VISA would be even more important.

Spot on (3, Interesting)

rogueippacket (1977626) | about a year ago | (#44991827)

I'm glad that someone is attempting to quantify this. As someone who works in sales for hosted services, I saw this trend emerge virtually overnight with the Snowden leaks - the complete erosion of trust for any service hosted in the U.S., even if the actual, measurable impact to date any of my customers of being spied upon is exactly nil.
Now if only someone would compare the impact to the NSA's operating budget and draw some lines, things might get better. I've been called an optimist before, however.

Re:Spot on (5, Insightful)

Karl Cocknozzle (514413) | about a year ago | (#44991967)

I'm glad that someone is attempting to quantify this. As someone who works in sales for hosted services, I saw this trend emerge virtually overnight with the Snowden leaks - the complete erosion of trust for any service hosted in the U.S., even if the actual, measurable impact to date any of my customers of being spied upon is exactly nil.

Now if only someone would compare the impact to the NSA's operating budget and draw some lines, things might get better. I've been called an optimist before, however.

"Actual" and "measurable" are two different things. The simple truth is we don't really know the extent of what the NSA is up to or whom they're sharing this data with. Already there have been calls for this treasure trove of private information to be "shared" with private companies so they can "help out" in the fight against terrorism. And the fact that these organizations have the guts to publicly lobby for such access says to me that likely somebody somewhere in private industry already has access to some or all of it through "connections" and now wants this sharing legalized so their access to that knowledge can be leveraged for greater financial gain out in the open, in front of stockholders.

Re:Spot on (4, Insightful)

AmiMoJo (196126) | about a year ago | (#44992269)

The fact that we don't know just makes it worse. We have to assume that the entire US and everything in it is compromised.

Re:Spot on (3, Interesting)

Karl Cocknozzle (514413) | about a year ago | (#44992499)

The fact that we don't know just makes it worse. We have to assume that the entire US and everything in it is compromised.

For the moment, I'd say that is a wise assumption. If I were a non-US corporation or person I'd be assuming the exact same thing. Until there is a full, detailed accounting--of the uncomfortable "truth commission" variety--all but the staunchest pro-authoritarian Americans will believe it anyway, so there's no sense delaying what absolutely has to happen.

It may yet be that the capitalist interests that the NSA are damaging might in the long-run have to expend considerable lobbying dollars to reverse some of this perception by drastically reining in the NSA. Or we can write-off a good chunk of the money we'd have otherwise made by innovating online.

Re:Spot on (4, Informative)

jeti (105266) | about a year ago | (#44993217)

Eduard Snowden wasn't employed by the NSA, but by Booz Allen Hamilton, which belongs to the Carlyle Group. Think about the opportunities insider information offers to these kinds of investors.

Re:Spot on (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992007)

Pretty much the same here. The problem is that it is a poker game where everyone was cheating, but it was the US that got caught with the spare ace in the sleeve pocket.

The biggest answer is to split data via cryptographic sharing (not just cut the data into pieces, but using Shamir's system) and store it among cloud providers in multiple countries. It would require collusion and decryption of all the providers in order for a third party to get the data back, which is doable, but highly unlikely, especially data is stored in countries that don't cooperate with each other.

I've also seen this trend. It seems to have caused the push to store everything in the cloud to go back to storing locally, so I wouldn't be surprised of EMC has a windfall this near fiscal year because of people buying new drive arrays instead of stashing their stuff on Glacier or S3.

What about Americans? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44991855)

So Brazil, Germany, and lots of others, get some sort of privacy back... but what about Americans? Why the hell should they be spied on just because someone in a uniform decides he's like to "collect it all"?

Re:What about Americans? (1)

Guru80 (1579277) | about a year ago | (#44992415)

No they don't get it back. Anyone who thinks that the minute those governments have access to that amount of data that they won't take a peak is fooling themselves. Welcome to the world we live in today. All through history, those in power always do whatever they can to leverage it. Today it is easier than ever since every single thing about every single person is basically in digital format and can be transported on an item the size of a finger nail. Privacy has all but been completely eroded by irresponsible people throughout the world.

Re:What about Americans? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992525)

Something called Democracy?

Re:What about Americans? (1)

gmuslera (3436) | about a year ago | (#44993185)

The americans were the ones that put the entire world into this. It had some time into making, and still were elected people controlled by the same pupeteers each time. It was pretty clear in previous election that worrying trends were just increase if Obama get reelected, and he did (and people were happy because the "other option" wasnt elected, even if both options would had the same people in control, and there actually were other options, if even were expressely voting for noone).

And you are just starting to realize how deep the rabbit hole goes, your private information is shared with Israel [slashdot.org] so any limitation US intelligence still have to access all your information it can be dodged using that proxy. And is not just privacy what is in danger, intellectual property if you are not one of the big players could be worthless, objectors are muted in a way or another, and press is tighly controlled. You don't have a democracy anymore, and your country is taking care that there is no democracy in practice anywhere else.

Well... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44991887)

This is what happens when you sleep with the NSA.

Nice, but (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44991893)

Great, build an offshore data center beyond the NSA's reach in the Bahamas, heavily guarded both physically and electronically.

How exacy will they stop the NSA from snooping in while data is getting there? If they plan to transport the tapes on a vessel from time to time, good luck getting funding for such project. What if the vessel accidentally bumps into a torpedo along the way?

Great (4, Insightful)

LoRdTAW (99712) | about a year ago | (#44991899)

First we rid ourselves of manufacturing to become a country of services and intellectual property. Then we destroy the reputation of our services by spying on everyone who uses them. Good job government. Good job.

Re:Great (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992009)

First we rid ourselves of manufacturing to become a country of services and intellectual property. Then we destroy the reputation of our services by spying on everyone who uses them.

It was Snowden who destroyed the reputation of their services. Were it not for him, businesses wouldn't have been spooked into dropping US cloud services. Place the blame on that traitor, not a government that was balancing US business and national security concerns just fine until he absconded with classified data.

Re:Great (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992403)

Yeah, let's shoot the messenger.

Re:Great (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992449)

It makes sense to shoot the messenger in this case, because one's reputation depends on what people know about you, not what is kept strictly classified and hidden away. As long as no one knew that the NSA was engaged in such detailed interception, US cloud-based businesses could enjoy a fairly unblemished reputation and attract foreign business. Alerting foreign business to what was going on, blemishing the reputations of US providers, is entirely on Snowden.

Re:Great (1)

torsmo (1301691) | about a year ago | (#44992661)

Any ill reputation that US cloud services have acquired is entirely their own doing. Stop shoveling blame where none is warranted.

Re:Great (1)

stanlyb (1839382) | about a year ago | (#44992771)

Wow, i have only one word for you: IDIOT

Re:Great (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992871)

One's reputation depends on what you do, or do not do, to EARN that reputation. According to your rationale, the real guilty parties in the Watergate scandal were the two Washington Post journalists who published all the information, right? YOU FUCKING IDIOT!

Re:Great (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44993037)

What the fuck is wrong with you? Are there a lot of people in US that think like that? Wow! You must be a politician or something because usually people are not that stupid unless they are paid to be.

Re:Great (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44993099)

Well if your sibling snitches on you when you do something wrong, you are not suddenly innocent. You just got caught doing something wrong.

Re:Great (5, Insightful)

sqrt(2) (786011) | about a year ago | (#44992511)

The NSA was not balancing anything. They are a rogue agency operating outside of the law and outside of meaningful oversight. Snowden is a patriot and a hero for exposing the criminals at the NSA for what they are. The NSA does not make America safer or more competitive at business. It's a liability to our freedom, our safety, and our economic security.

Re:Great (1)

stanlyb (1839382) | about a year ago | (#44992799)

The simple fact that Snowden was able to get all these documents, and publish it, means only one thing: The question is not if this could be prevented, but when it will happen. As simple as that.

Re:Great (2)

gmuslera (3436) | about a year ago | (#44993219)

Yeah, we must jail the witnesses and leave free the assassins so they keep killing. You are sure that you won't be the next target, no? Or is just too deep into the culture to be too big to jail [rollingstone.com] ?

Re:Great (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44993397)

Imagine that same reasoning applied to other situations ...

"You are accused of defrauding Mr. Foo. Do you plead guilty or not guilty?"
"Well, of course not guilty."
"But you already confessed that you took his money away instead of investing it as per your agreement with him. So you retract that confession?"
"No, I did do that, so no reason to retract."
"But then, why do you plead not guilty?"
"Well, Mr. Foo wouldn't have noticed it if he would not have been told by Mrs. Bar. Therefore it clearly is Mrs. Bar who is guilty."
"That argumentation is reasonable. I'd say we can close the case now."

Re:Great (1)

gmuslera (3436) | about a year ago | (#44993261)

I just hope that the other countries realize that all the intellectual property agreements with US worths nothing in the actual situation, NSA are free to roam their internal networks and private mails, steal any intellectual property they want to give to big corporations to patent/copyright them so the original inventors don't have it, anywhere.

So no manufacturing, no services, and no intellectual property. Just a big bully sitting there.

The perception of privacy is valuable (4, Insightful)

SpaceManFlip (2720507) | about a year ago | (#44991901)

We may or may not have ever had any real privacy online, and only the naive would post revealing/personal/sensitive things anywhere online, but all along most folks have assumed that it would be WRONG for anyone to spy on your online business without warrants. And it most certainly fucking IS.

And here's the big-ass BUT, really, DARPA built the Internet. Someone has been spying on some of it all along, most certainly. BUT the level it has risen to with the holy excuse of THA TURRISTS is unexcusable. The Snowden Shaming was long overdue.

Court Martial Alexander. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44991905)

That is all.

Works as designed (1)

pesho (843750) | about a year ago | (#44991915)

Wasn't internet designed around the idea to route around damage? Places where spying on everybody and his sister is the norm certainly looks like something to be avoided. But then again, we don't want the terrorists to win. Right?

Re:Works as designed (1, Insightful)

Nyder (754090) | about a year ago | (#44992247)

Wasn't internet designed around the idea to route around damage? Places where spying on everybody and his sister is the norm certainly looks like something to be avoided. But then again, we don't want the terrorists to win. Right?

Terrorism won. The terrorist took on the Big USA, claimed they weren't the "good guys" that they claimed to be. Come a decade later, we got Snowden showing exactly how much of dicks the USA Government really is, and that the terrorist aren't the big threat, but that the USA Government is the big threat. The one causing TERROR in the world.

Re:Works as designed (0)

Krneki (1192201) | about a year ago | (#44992741)

Truth to be told the USA started to be a dick since the WWII.

sad this is now nsa spying is going to get stopped (1)

Dan667 (564390) | about a year ago | (#44991921)

US citizens outraged their Constititional Rights are being trampled on enough to end nsa spying on them? Nope. Mega corporations losing revenue because of nsa spying? That nsa spying needs to end immediately.

Client side cryptography (1)

pmontra (738736) | about a year ago | (#44991931)

I expect a surge in client side cryptography, where servers store encrypted data and the keys never leave the client. This can't suit every application but it could be a good selling point for a while. Most of it will be done in JavaScript for convenience, even if it's not a good idea [matasano.com] . Mega is just an entry level example of what can go wrong. Some "real" client application (mobile or desktop) will be developed, I wonder if they'll get mainstream. Anyway that only raises the bar for whoever wants to spy on us. There are many other ways to bypass encryption (rootkits, 0 day exploits, etc), nevertheless it's going to increase their costs.

Some agency will spy on you (2)

PPH (736903) | about a year ago | (#44991933)

Yes. But some countries do so only to maintain their domestic security. That's not always good, but I can deal with it. What many people don't like is losing their privacy in the name of propping up the US' good old boy commercial interests. And getting pulled into every global military dick swinging contest.

Some Agency (2)

Kirth (183) | about a year ago | (#44991989)

However, a lot of companies will be more comfortable if an agency from their own country will be spying on them, if only to keep US-companies from getting business intelligence.

From that point of view, the USA just got too greedy with their industrial espionage.

At the end of the day, some agency will spy on you (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992037)

Maybe, but we don't have to make it easy.

Data Haven in the Sultanate of Kinakuta (2)

advid.net (595837) | about a year ago | (#44992059)

I remember Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson: the data haven is built underground on some island with brand new huge pipes / data cables.
Who's going to be the Sultanate of Kinakuta ?

Missing the Point (2)

organgtool (966989) | about a year ago | (#44992073)

At the end of the day, some agency will spy on you

Yes and you can be sure that most governments are already spying on their own people. The point of using non-US cloud services is to limit the amount of eyes on your data. If your company is based outside of the U.S., your government is likely keeping their own tabs on internet traffic - maybe not to the same extent as the NSA, but it's likely happening nonetheless. Then, if you use U.S.-based cloud services, you have to worry about the U.S. government having access to that data as well. By using a provider in your own country, you limit the number of parties available to snoop on that data to the company offering the cloud services and your local government.

Re:Missing the Point (1)

gmuslera (3436) | about a year ago | (#44993323)

I take anytime a government spying in their own people over a government spying and controlling other countries people, sometimes even is a reaction for their own protection, to avoid the dangers implied of other government controlling your own people. Also, using Russia, China and a few more as all the 200+ governments is a good generalization to support that it must be good because others do it, there are thousands of people that steal, so everyone steals, so is ok that you do it, no?

offshore (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992123)

How stupid do you have to be to believe that there is even a single state on this Earth that isn't spying on the Internet or wouldn't shut-down or coerce a service operator to give them secret access?

Re:offshore (1)

stanlyb (1839382) | about a year ago | (#44993241)

So, you would prefer to live in Bronx? Right? Because, it is all the same everywhere...

Dear europe.... It wont matter.. (2)

Lumpy (12016) | about a year ago | (#44992181)

Because your endpoints will still be compromised.

Unless all of you are moving to Linux or BSD, we will still have full access to all your data.

Love,

The NSA

Re:Dear europe.... It wont matter.. (1)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about a year ago | (#44992235)

What about my C64? Is it safe?

Re:Dear europe.... It wont matter.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992337)

should be, so long as you dont use facebooger (their CMS, AKAMAI, is an israeli spy front), and do not use your cellphone for connectivity (cellphone companies have billing software, usually AMDOCS, which is also an israeli spy front)

Re:Dear europe.... It wont matter.. (1)

Errol backfiring (1280012) | about a year ago | (#44992629)

Given that mine is switched off now for more than 15 years, I think it is.

Re:Dear europe.... It wont matter.. (1)

cpghost (719344) | about a year ago | (#44993039)

Very true w.r.t. endpoints.

Regarding alternative OS, it won't matter. Who says Intel, AMD, ARM, nVidia, RealTek and all other hardware manufacturers haven't already included backdoors into their firmwares and hardware design to please the NSA? There was an article [heise.de] recently in the German magazine C't about possible backdoors in Intel's Active Management's Technology (AMT). Even if turns out to be a hoax, for now, who knows what lays dormant in such firmware, waiting to be tapped by the NSA?

Re:Dear europe.... It wont matter.. (1)

stanlyb (1839382) | about a year ago | (#44993265)

And that was my reason to not even look at Intel's motherboards, at all, no matter the consequences. Sorry guys, you lost me long time ago with your TPM chips.

euro cloud concept is ignorant (2)

Karmashock (2415832) | about a year ago | (#44992287)

it won't protect anyone.

If anything, it will simply expose europeans to spying by european governments by labeling your secret information secret and then putting it in their pocket.

Re:euro cloud concept is ignorant (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992447)

No, but by making sure it's their own governments doing this to them, it does give them one extra power. The ability to vote the entire lot of them out of office if they dick shit up enough. That's something they couldn't do if it's a foreign government doing all the collecting and sharing of their data.

Re:euro cloud concept is ignorant (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44993047)

yeah, right, like anything happened after snowden leaks.. and how long they managed to keep the secret!

Misread the title.. (2)

MadKeithV (102058) | about a year ago | (#44992453)

For a minute I thought the title was "NSA Internet Spying Sharks Race To Create Offshore Havens For Data Privacy". Those would have been some cool sharks.

About time (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44992533)

The US has been screwing the EU over for financial gain ever since the Marshall Plan.

"Offshore data havens" indeed (2)

kheldan (1460303) | about a year ago | (#44993207)

Apparently it's not only politicians who are remarkably inept when it comes to technical matters, but many others as well. I think it's safe to say at this point that there is no way to 100% ensure that any data stored "in the cloud" is safe from the prying eyes of the truly motivated.

You want your data to be 100% secure? Then store it off-line. If the FBI, CIA, NSA, DHS, military intelligence, or whoever you care to name really wants to see what's stored on a USB flash drive or hard drive sitting on a shelf in my house (or stored in a safe deposit box, or in a vault somewhere, or buried in the ground in an undisclosed location) then they'll have to come and physically get it.

Re:"Offshore data havens" indeed (1)

stanlyb (1839382) | about a year ago | (#44993295)

Exactly, that's the only sensible solution. Make them earn their salt. It is all number's game.

Stock markets? (1)

RoTNCoRE (744518) | about a year ago | (#44993457)

So now that the veil has been pulled back, when do we all realize that the next logical conclusion as citizens globally is to exit the stock market en masse? Any notion remaining that it was a fair game have been squashed - if NSA staff and contractors can monitor exes and lovers for months without effective oversight, imagine the financial incentive to do the same to C level execs?

Offshore data havens? (4, Insightful)

The Archon V2.0 (782634) | about a year ago | (#44993493)

Holy hell, William Gibson's Virtual Light [goodreads.com] is coming true! At least we don't have to worry until we see the middle class vanish and the rise of Christians who worship exclusively by watching television.

Oh, shit.

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