NJ Gamblers May Be Locked Out By Flaws In Virtual Fence 88
According to an Associated Press story (as carried by the Washington Post), regulations meant to selectively allow some forms of internet gambling to take place within New Jersey (with a cut to the state, of course) are being enforced by means of "virtual fences" that fall short of the state's borders. An excerpt: "'Unfortunately for some people, there may not be sufficient verification that they are in New Jersey — even if they are — and they’ll be denied,' said David Rebuck, director of the state Division of Gaming Enforcement. 'It’s an unavoidable consequence.'" For some values of unavoidable, maybe.
Hmm.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Hmm.. (Score:5, Informative)
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Probably Neighboring states are the ones forcing this. NJ probably doesn't care all that much.
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Could someone ask these people to define "unavoidable" for us, please.
If you read the story, you would understand that if you are using a portable device, connected to a cell tower, and you have your GPS switched off, or are denying use of same to your web browser, there is enough imprecision in cell tower triangulation method of location determination that your position can not be verified as being within New Jersey.
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In this case it means no cost effective solution exists.
Otherwise you know that the additional revenues from increasing the number of potential customers would gleefully be exploited by the state of New Jersey.
Proxy? (Score:5, Interesting)
Is it just me or does this look pretty silly? One proxy inside their virtual fence and it's utterly pointless and useless?
Re:Proxy? (Score:4, Insightful)
could even be made into a service and monetized for those who dont know what the fuck a proxy is
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For a mere portion of the winnings, but none of the losses I wager. (see what I did there?)
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That's fine; if you use a proxy, then the casino has done due diligence to prevent you from gambling, and you have deliberately broken it, and accept the liability.
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A proxy would be pretty easy to spot and block. Many different accounts logging on from the same IP sticks out quite a bit.
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So multiple people in my apartment can't use NAT?
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Less than ten may get by but 50+ is probably not going to fly.
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Did those numbers stick a little bit coming out of your ass?
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Posting AC and probably replying to your own post; talk to me when you get a backbone.
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There is a bigger profit incentive to not let it slide; the commision may shut the gambling down completely(that is the reason for this article). One would also have to own those IP addresses to be able to allocate them. IP addresses are not free.
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A proxy would be pretty easy to spot and block. Many different accounts logging on from the same IP sticks out quite a bit.
A hotel basement location might make them think guests are playing... It also provides a simple way to monetize the service, you "rent a room" and get a connection...
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That would be more difficult to weed out but still not impossible. A 20 room hotel with 100 simultaneous connections might be spotted. Most web pages don't care about proxies; gambling web sites do. Then there is the risk to the hotel of being charged with something like facilitating illegal gambling.
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A hotel basement location might make them think guests are playing... It also provides a simple way to monetize the service, you "rent a room" and get a connectionâ¦
How sick would a person have to be to rent a hotel room so they can gamble online? How addicted? If you want to get rid of your money, go to the movies, or to some concert, or have a nice dinner, but throwing it away gambling, that's just stupid.
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They'd be renting a virtual room, much less expensive.
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A hotel basement location might make them think guests are playing... It also provides a simple way to monetize the service, you "rent a room" and get a connectionâ¦
How sick would a person have to be to rent a hotel room so they can gamble online? How addicted? If you want to get rid of your money, go to the movies, or to some concert, or have a nice dinner, but throwing it away gambling, that's just stupid.
Almost like renting a room for a quick fuck.
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A proxy server would be known as a service by their ISP and probably assigned a static IP. Even DHCPs are not renewed that often. It causes problems with web sites that authenticate based on IP. They are usually renewed on power up. Most cable or DSL modems don't power cycle very often. I am not saying that it is foolproof but will probably be noticed and investigated.
So you could have 200 people using the same one over a week or so.
They would all have to attempt to gamble in NJ. Two hundred people trying to gamble from the same IP is not normal even if it changed hands e
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In all truth, the abundant number of legitimate reasons many users would connect from the same world-visible IP address would pretty much make blocking something on that basis alone be silly and probably anger customers with legitimate reason to be behind some IP address along with many others.
Hotels are the biggest source. If all their rooms are behind proxy and guests are coming and going, the number of 'new customers' coming from that single address would be very high.
In short, wagging around the 'large
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What you are railing at is auto blocking. What I am talking about is flagging for investigation. Lets look at this scenario;
1. 200 accounts accessing the NJ gambling servers from the same address in one day.
2. They look into the address and it is a hotel. If it is not a hotel and the investigation finds no legitimate reason for those connections they blacklist it.
3.a A 500 room hotel may be legit.
3.b A 20 room hotel, probably not so they investigate further.
For a proxy service to be profitable it would have
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For a proxy service to be profitable it would have to have hundreds of customers per day.
I don't see why, you are not going to need a very powerful VPN to play SSL/Webproxy for a handful of users and they don't cost much, tens of dollars per month. Get just a handful of users to pay you $30 and you probably well in the black.
Suppose you did have a legitimate business to use a front? Lets say I have a motel. I could negotiate with my out of state online gambling customers to a let them book rooms at a "special g-rate", which tells me I can double book the room (ie rent it again to a physical
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considering they are moving boundaries to cover their asses it is not a stretch to think they would look for proxies too. If they ignore a known hole they are not covering their asses.
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Hotels? Schools? Maybe the office gambles?
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Read the other posts under this comment as I don't see the need to repeat myself.
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Sure there are easy ways around the "fence", but comes at the risk, especially for taxable jackpots (ie. $1200+ for slots / video poker), of forfeiting winnings.
Re:Proxy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Is it just me or does this look pretty silly? One proxy inside their virtual fence and it's utterly pointless and useless?
Just remember that the objective of the system is to satisfy a statutory requirement. Can whoever is responsible for this 'virtual fence' system testify in court/legislative session that they are 'aggressively using industry-standard IP geolocation technology to ensure that New Jersey electronic gaming is conducted in accordance with the law'? Probably so, even without anything arising to the level of perjury. After that, why try harder? If there are lucrative, or sufficiently whiny, customers too close to the border for IP geolocation to work, maybe the ROI/flack avoidance value of working with ISPs to whitelist a few edge-case customers will be worth it; but leave crowing about having shut down somebody's trivial proxy site to the Attorney General or the DA, they get off on that kind of feel-good nonsense, and it's one less thing for you to do.
It's like doing CISPA [wikipedia.org] compliance. Do you think that the people who do that are utter morons who actually think that they can keep horny adolescents away from smut? Hardly. But they need a system that complies with that mandate, without breaking the budget or soaking up lots of admin time, and in it goes.
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I'm sure they'll gladly *take* your money from anywhere in the world but good luck being paid out without proving you are a NJ resident or being physically present in NJ. You can count on them policing that end of the system hard since they get to keep forfeit winnings.
So uh, if I drive to NJ, rent a hotel room, gamble online and win, it's forfeit? How is that legal? More importantly, if I did the same thing through a proxy located in NJ, how the heck are you gunna tell the difference?
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So uh, if I drive to NJ, rent a hotel room, gamble online and win, it's forfeit?
No, since you are physically in NJ. Just be sure to claim your win right away, rather than after your return from your trip in NJ...
More importantly, if I did the same thing through a proxy located in NJ
In that case, the casino "won't be able" to wire your money to your out-of-state bank account. But, if it is a big win, it'd be probably be worthwhile to drive over to NJ to pick up your winning in person... (or have it wired to a Western Union branch in NJ, if the gambling joint doesn't pay out winnings in cash at their head office)
The casino would still win out, because they
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I'm sure they'll gladly *take* your money from anywhere in the world but good luck being paid out without proving you are a NJ resident or being physically present in NJ. You can count on them policing that end of the system hard since they get to keep forfeit winnings.
For sufficiently large payouts, that might be worth it; but it would probably be a bad strategy for low stakes wins:
On average, even without changing the rules, the house wins. That's how the game is set up. Especially for online games, where 'floor space' is trivially cheap server time, every additional sucker in the door is, on average, more money for them. If it becomes known that they bait-and-switch out of state players, how many out of state players will come through the door?
It will also creat
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One doesn't need to be Christian to question the wisdom of allowing the Government and for-profit corporations to profit from gambling, which is essentially nothing more than a tax on people who are bad at math.
Nor do Christians generally oppose gambling. Two words for those who dispute this statement: Church bingo.
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One doesn't need to be Christian to question the wisdom of allowing the Government and for-profit corporations to profit from gambling, which is essentially nothing more than a tax on people who are bad at math.
There is a social cost to gambling. Areas with legal gambling tend to have higher crime rates, more substance abuse, prostitution, and families in poverty (many gamblers are those that can least afford it). It is reasonable to tax gambling to recoup these costs. It certainly makes more sense than taxing, say, income and payrolls.
Nor do Christians generally oppose gambling.
Does the bible prohibit or condemn gambling? I don't think so, although many people may believe that it does. This reminds me of the poll of born-again Christians that were ask
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It is reasonable to tax gambling to recoup these costs
It might be more reasonable not to allow gambling in the first place, particularly when it's the State (via the lottery) that's promoting it. That's what I was hinting at, not specifically condemning taxing the profits from gambling where it's legal for whatever reason. The flip-side to that is you drive it underground where it's harder to regulate, with obvious consequences, though at least the underground market isn't as ubiquitous and well advertised.
It would be interesting to see some actual studies
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Citations please
Citation. [washingtonpost.com]
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There is a social cost to gambling. Areas with legal gambling tend to have ...... prostitution,
So, its not all bad.
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Im personally a bigger fan of the poll where 80% of respondants admitted that most of the polls statistics that they quote are actually made up on the spot.
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"tax on people who are bad at math"
What's even worse is that the casinos are permitted
to not accept wagers from well funded individuals that
ARE good at math.
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It's possible to be good at math and enjoy gambling as a recreation or amusement.
Land of the free... (Score:3)
Unless you want to smoke some hash, snort some coke, gamble, pay for sex (or indeed, be paid for sex), or many of the other little things* that the government doesn't want you to do. But, feel free to be ripped off by the banks, insurance companies, and other financial institutions. And feel free to pay your taxes so that the government can export that freedom.
* Little things. Victim-less crimes. Suicide is not murder, and self-harm is not assault.
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where can you do (most) of those things, in the world, and not be breaking the law?
why single out the US?
we have too many laws, but I would argue the WORLD has too many laws, too.
its people. its how people (regardless of location) seem to act when they are 'rulers'. they make lots and lots of laws and prohibit anything that is fun..
"stop enjoying what I don't enjoy!" pretty much sums it up.
Re:Land of the free... (Score:4, Insightful)
The rest of the world doesn't (by and large) claim to be "land of the free". And yes, any place that outlaws victim-less activities, and claims to be free, is obviously not. But, apart from the drugs issue, there are plenty of places that allow the buying (and selling) of sex, and gambling.
Personally, I think it's not so much as stop enjoying what I don't, but more, that's bad for you, because I said so. And I'm obviously know better than you, because.
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Because they self proclaim as "the land of the free" obviously, whereas, Saudi Arabia (for example) does not and hence there is no hypocrisy when they aren't actually free.
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pay for sex (or indeed, be paid for sex)
You can do both of those things, so long as you're filming them.
Paying for sex in front of the camera == production of pornography, perfectly legal in most American jurisdictions
Paying for sex without a camera == prostitution, and illegal in most American jurisdictions
The law is nothing if not "consistent". ;)
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Referring to "the law" is misleading. AFAIK, the Supreme Court has said nothing about prostitution being interstate commerce, so it's a matter of state law, and that differs from state to state.
In all states, parts of Nevada excepted, it's illegal for me to pay a hot chick to have sex with me. In some states, as I understand it, it's legal for me to pay a hot chick to have sex with a hot dude, as long as I'm not doing it for my own sexual satisfaction. As long as I'm paying for sex so I can film it an
Shockingly... (Score:3)
...nothing of value was lost. And I mean that in both senses.
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Meh, some people pay good money for tix to a concert or sports game, and while there buy some food and drinks. They do that for entertainment and the performers and the venue always win, yet nobody raises an eyebrow.
My friends and I go to the casino, spend a preset amount of money on slot machines and card games, and buy some food and drinks. We do it for entertainment too and the house always wins just like the concert/sports venue, yet somehow what we do is wrong.
Go figure.
"Unavoidable?" (Score:2)
"Unavoidable" means there is no way around it. That's bullshit when dealing with computers. There is always a way around it, if you're not a lazy fucktard doing the programming.
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There is always a way around it, if you're not a lazy fucktard doing the programming.
Doing anything is EASY (if not actually trivial), doing it well/properly/thoroughly is HARD in the same sense as "NP Hard".
The problem is that almost everyone happy to "just do it" (as in the sense of only just barely) rather than "If a thing is worth doing, it's worth doing well".
While it's completely off topic, this is ONE of the reasons why Apple products are very popular. Because (not always, but in most cases) the things they do are done *very* well.
There's No Catch... (Score:2)
Worst of both worlds (Score:2)
Have to live in New Jersey. Can't participate in one of the few worthwhile activities.
WTO (Score:2)
Why? (Score:2)
Why make it all so complicated?
- Require valid user with unique ID and password
- Allow NJ citizens to sign up
- Filter out 'undesirables' (non-NJ, banned, underage etc.)
Now, just allow anybody that's a valid user to play regardless of their location.
Not a bit of bias in the write up at all (Score:2)
"with a cut to the state, of course"
How the good people of New Jersey want to organize their government and support their government services is their business. Perhaps we can run a government for free? Or is tax evasion a God given right?
I bet if it had been done by a private company the post would consider this "cut" to be fair, just, and natural.
warning: state's rights comment (Score:2)
Just want to point out that if gambling were controlled via some uniform set of laws rather than varying wildly state-to-state, this sort of nonsense would be moot. And that includes the taxation laws, as it's easy to deduct a tax from online winnings, just difficult if you have to change the tax rate for every dang community or region.
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However, until the Supreme Court decides that gambling that is limited to one state is still interstate commerce (they've done things like that before), the Federal government can't regulate gambling, and it is left up to the states. This feature of the US Constitution has good and bad results, and I think this counts on the bad side.
IP addresses have nothing at all to do with this (Score:2)
They triangulate your location using the closest cell phone towers, and get your position that way. The problem with this is that for the 300,000+ people in Jersey City or Hoboken, the strongest cell tower may be located in New York City where internet gaming is illegal, and you get shut out of using the services. Same goes for the people in Camden that may get a signal indicating they are in Philade