Estonia Sharing Its Finnish-Made E-Government Solution With Finland 83
paavo512 writes "For the last decade or so, Estonia has developed a national electronic data exchange layer called X-Road. Is is based on national electronic ID cards and allows creation of common electronic services like founding a company, declaring taxes or e-voting. Every day, over 800,000 enquiries are made via X-Road (the population of Estonia is 1.3M). According to the PM of Estonia, the solution is saving 2% of national GDP annually. The Estonian ID card technology was originally imported from Finland; however, it appears Finns have for 10 years failed to come up with any significant e-services making use of them. So it is now agreed that Estonian X-Road solution will be expanding to Finland as well."
Re:I was gonna frist post (Score:5, Funny)
Well, then, I'll help you.
PLEASE US Feds and State leaders, pass by this idea, don't dwell on it and for God's sake, don't try to implement it.
We can't even get a fucking website working...please don't fuck with a National ID...we'll all be screwed.
It won't work here....just tell us a tax amount, and leave us alone!!
Re: (Score:3)
You know that the "tell us a tax amount" is a thing that other countries can do because of unified national identity databases, right? In some places, you don't have to "do your taxes". The government just sends you a bill for what they didn't take out over the year.
Re: (Score:3)
No, it's because their tax code isn't so bloated and screwed up as ours. Printed on 8.5x11, the US tax code is 74,000 pages long (well, actually 73,954).
The fact that the IRS can come knocking on your door and send you fines for not filing your
Re: (Score:3)
You know, I was about to add a reply to the person you replied to, but then I read your post and it could not be more spot on!!
The person above you was apparently only talking about personal tax too, for a country. It's a different story here in the US as that you also have state and sometimes city taxation to deal with too, and if you're a business owner
Re: (Score:2)
The government just sends you a bill for what they didn't take out over the year.
Dont know about you, but I'd rather the government sends me a cheque for the amount they weren't meant to take (seeing as tax contributions by pay period in Australia are controlled by your employer's accounting system, not the govt, its the market doing it). But seriously, in June would you rather get a cheque or a bill. If you opt for a bill, I suggest you seek mental help.
Re: (Score:1)
I live in Finland and this doesn't surprise me at all...
When it comes to IT, we're all talk and no action :(
What a clueless post! I too live in Finland and we have made many pioneering internet inventions like
* The Linux kernel
* A web browser before web https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwise [wikipedia.org]
* Secure Shell protocol or SSH
* Internet Relay Chat
etc
Re:It's no wonder... (Score:4, Insightful)
Erwise: Started March 1992, Released April, 1992
WorldWideWeb: Proposed in 1989, Started late 1990, Released August 1991
I don't think "before" means what you think it means, but I'll accept the other three.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
In this case, it sounds like the original technology was good, but for it to be useful, it needs an implementation in a larger framework. Just like the best tires in the world aren't all that useful without an appropriate vehicle to mount them on.
Re: (Score:2)
IRC: 1988
Linux: 1991
Erwise: 1992
SSH: 1995
But what has the next generation done?
Re:It's no wonder... (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
What a clueless post! I too live in Finland and we have made many pioneering internet inventions like
We have a proverb that could be roughly translated as "you can't become a prophet at home".
Also, Erwise post-dates the WWW. Did you notice how nonsensical your clam is? That's like saying "we've invented alphabet even before human speech appeared". Think twice next time.
Re: How much did X-Road cost to develop? (Score:2)
X-road is not also much a website per se but an background infrastructure to exchange data from different (state and private) databases and websites.
I don't know in what way this is finnish invention, AFAIK it was entirely developed in Estonia from the start. Maybe the idea as such originated in Finland. And p.s. - its open source.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: How much did X-Road cost to develop? (Score:2)
National id card system maybe originated from Finland. But X-road is more for server to server communication infrastructure, so its a bit different thing. And that is local. Id card is just one way of authenticating users.
how does this work on (Score:2)
how does this work on days when it isn't working? All service "access" cards are inherently also service denial systems if you don't have a card or the access system is down. Is their a fail over system available to every service access point?
Re:how does this work on (Score:4, Insightful)
You end up with a choice of: 1) wait for the service to come back up; or 2) visit an office in person and talk to a civil servant.
Basically the same choice you have when your bank's internet banking is down. If you need to initiate a transfer, you either wait for it to come back up, or you walk into a bank to do it. If their backend system is down, you can't walk into a bank either, so you just wait in that case. Same here; if you want to register a new corporation and the site is down, you either fill out the registration on paper and submit it the old-fashioned way, or you wait for the site to come back up.
Re:how does this work on (Score:4, Informative)
The biggest issue I had was java/driver/OS incompatibilities which mean that I can only use the card and card-reader on my g/f's x86_64 machine, not my POWER machine, nor my x86 laptop (all running linux). Anyone with delusions that java actually actually runs everywhere at this juncture should be taken outside and put out of my misery.
Re: (Score:2)
"That's one of the benefits of a small country - we'll never have to cope with a third of a billion people wanting to use a system."
Something many people overlook when saying we should adapt X country's Y system to the US. Estonia has 1.33 million people. Finland has 5.4 million people. The US has 20 states with larger populations than Finland (40 larger than Estonia)... it makes a big difference when trying to scale.
Re: (Score:3)
Then perhaps it should work like a group of united States. Where states are left up to their own vices for setting up laws and services. And if one state does something that another likes they can adopt it. Like Finland adopting Estonia's system. And the federal government is left to do little more than the EU does. Central currency, regulate trade between states, etc.
Re: (Score:1)
The biggest issue I had was java/driver/OS incompatibilities which mean that I can only use the card and card-reader on my g/f's x86_64 machine, not my POWER machine, nor my x86 laptop (all running linux). Anyone with delusions that java actually actually runs everywhere at this juncture should be taken outside and put out of my misery.
That was because the Java applet contained platform-specific code for some bits that couldn't be (or just weren't) done in Java. But we've overcome that for now, more or less.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
(Okay, that's a dumb comment, but seriously... yours is a bit much too)
Re: (Score:2)
Or, are you even thinking that just because a machine is virtual, it doesn't qualify as a platform?
Finland: be careful! (Score:1)
Re:Finland: be careful! (Score:5, Interesting)
I suspect that that particular healthcare thing is indeed part of this larger e-Government solution.
Everyone else designed the one to throw away. Finally, there's one worth keeping. (And no, I'm not blowing my own trumpet, I had no involvement with it at all, I'm not even sure which company was behind it.)
Re: (Score:1)
Healthcare.gov is estimated to cost up to $677 million, or about $2.16 per capita for a brand new system.
A $5 million tweak in Estonia works out to be about $3.76 per capita... for a tweak.
Just something to consider.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Clue - there was no "5 million tweak".
Re: (Score:2)
http://washingtonexaminer.com/oregon-signs-up-just-44-people-for-obamacare-despite-spending-300-million/article/2540529
The Estonia figure was all inclusive, so you're not comparing like with like, you need to add all 50 extra $300M's, or whatever they may be.
(And if they are all indeed $300M, then you may conclude that we do things 50 times more cheaply, not 20 times, as originally guestimated.)
Re:Finland: be careful! (Score:4, Interesting)
Mmmm,
I first saw what the Estonians were doing in 2001 or 2002.
At the time I said to all and sundry how amazed i was with what the Estonians were able to do on a small budget, against what the so-called giants of the technological world were doing routinely spending billions for a hundreds of invariably failed major IT projects. Estonia did have the 'advantages' of, first coming to the arena of 'modernisation' and IT integration late, second not having a heap of spare cash to blow on IT projects, third having to build their infrastructure and software ecology from the ground up, and fourth being able to integrate many disparate players (but most critically the banks and financial sector) from Day 1.
That said, what they did (on what we in the rest of the world would call 'pennies') still remains one of the most cost effective, efficient, useful and pervasive IT value adding I've ever seen. They didn't invest much in 'big metal', or huge development teams, or bring on board massive communications, hardware, and software consortiums ... they concentrated on what could be done with a small to mid range systems client-server environment running back-end database packages for Web and other open standards based front ends ... and surprisingly they coordinated it all so that it all worked together relatively seamlessly. As the elements of the system came online, they got new stakeholders onboard, developed new functionality and applications, and incorporated that into their.
The Estonians I met at a conference in Canada asked me to write a paper outlining my support for, and opinions of, their efforts, to be used to support some acquisitions they had in mind for the next government budget .... which I was delighted to do.
If any government or major enterprise is going to embark on a major IT project in the near future, I'd recommend they look at how the Estonians do it. For 1/10 of the cost or better Estonia can develop and integrate systems, and add immense value, convenience and functionality to its citizens lives .... which is way better than any other country I've seen over the last 10-20 years.
Re: (Score:1)
That is just bad management, nothing else.
The main benefit of all the IT stack is that it saves a lot of time: you don't have to run around with a bunch of papers between various government agencies who manage everything digitally anyway. The X-Road is a data exchange layer: it is a common service-oriented stack to connect various databases and IT systems together, it just provides a secure way of doing it, nothing else. Secure as in with strong cryptography, auditable, etc. Starting a company, doing taxes
Re: (Score:1)
/me wonders what those hoops would be?
I have a driver's license, a passport, and a Global Entry ID. Nothing about getting them was onerous. I didn't even have to bribe anyone.
Re: (Score:2)
I know driver's license and passport, but WTF is a Global Entry ID?
Never heard of that in the US before....
Re: (Score:2)
It's basically your fast track through customs. Why it can't be added as an endorsement on your passport is a mystery, but... US. So I guess it makes sense when you put it that way.
Re: (Score:2)
Want it in the UK (Score:2)
Wow, if we could save 2% of GDP, that's £40B, which is our entire education budget.
TIL: Estonia can make IT projects work (Score:3)
Perhaps the next iteration of healthcare.gov could be outsourced there. Just a thought.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Unfortunately the way that would work out in practice with the current government would be: If you like your Estonian doctor, you can keep your Estonian doctor. That's great if you're in Estonia, but that would make visits from the US to doctor's offices a pain.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Ah, but the Estonians do not wear silly hats (except at Rennaissance festivals) and their level of mud is much lower (except during the spring thaw).
Seriously, they're about the most wired country in Europe, having brought you Skype, digital voting and a network of electric car charging station. ThankYouVeryMuch. If anybody can figure out a way to make some nutbar digital system work, it's them.
Disclaimer: Half Estonian. Making nutbar digital things work daily.
Typo (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
X-Road simpler than it sounds (Score:1)
What I've understood it's a middleware which routes (service registration, queuing) messages between services.
While this does not sound like rocket science, apparently it has allowed them not to pursue commitee made generic interfaces between services (see HL7 crap). The amount of money that is spent on HL7 fiddling around the globe per year must amount to a small nations yearly budget (citation needed, I only know of the Finnish amounts).
Instead of design-by-committee they probably have been able to "use i
There are risks, of course. (Score:2)
Kudos for staying under budget, Estonia. But let's look at what we have here. An easy-to-use, ubiquitous identity solution that's easily integrated everywhere?
Sounds cool, right? But only if you trust your government, and every government thereafter. With small countries (Estonia, Iceland) this is much easier than with bigger countries. And I'm not even talking Russia or the US, but, say, the supposedly benign and enlightened folks in the UK. First there was the anti-child porn filter, that wasn't to be use
Re:There are risks, of course. (Score:5, Insightful)
is is is (Score:2)