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Edward Snowden Says NSA Engages In Industrial Espionage

timothy posted about 3 months ago | from the disapproval-does-not-require-surprise dept.

Government 212

Maow writes "Edward Snowden has been interviewed by a German TV network and stated that the NSA is involved in industrial espionage, which is outside the range of national security. He claims that Siemens is a prime example of a target for the data collection. I doubt this would surprise AirBus or other companies, but it shall remain to be seen what measures global industries take (if any) to prevent their internal secrets from falling into NSA's — and presumably American competitors' — hands." AirBus is a good example of a company that has experienced spying from both sides.

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212 comments

the fear can be smelt (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079575)

millions marching daily (way too many under live fire) (r)evolutionary connection world wide resistance to the never ending WMD on credit zionic corepirate nazi holycost

arbitrary free land freeloader fake heritage WMD on credit holycost peddlers expanding promised land ambitions under trial by fire

genocidal corepirate nazis holding fictional deities hostage still & propose the new queen of the nile be a guy

1000s of genuine spiritual & physical allys continue dying daily from 100% preventable starvation etc... still no one is responsible

our centerpeace momkind infinite patience passed every test

hymenless monkeys still contesting primitive accusations claiming turd flinging is as dirty as it should ever get billions of unchosen brotheruns agree

rockets red glare babys bursting in air (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079613)

& still no one really cares? spiritual bankruptcy proceedings are ongoing..... going on....

mynutswon; dark matters series a must watch? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079927)

reverse bipolar self-unmoderation has kicked in since we tricked the mutant crown royals into composting their dna into the lhc, effectively putting the never ending holycost into a fire all of our guns at once tailspin... creation remains undefeated support our sync with the big c's earth bound reps. momkind et pals... little miss dna cannot be wrong,, unperfect is plenty good enough..

Re:rockets red glare babys bursting in air (1)

lagomorpha2 (1376475) | about 3 months ago | (#46080251)

& still no one really cares? spiritual bankruptcy proceedings are ongoing..... going on....

If the United States files for spiritual bankruptcy how will it influence our long term spiritual credit rating? Will we be allowed to retain our dignity through the proceedings or will that be auctioned off?

America Inc. (3, Interesting)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about 3 months ago | (#46079631)

The French was epic in industrial espionage until the Chinese caught up.

Never to be left behind, the United States jumped on the wagon - and applied the lesson learned from both the French and the Chinese, the United States of America has perfected the art of industrial espionage to such degree that no one, not even the Chinese, can ever dream of matching their success.

But unfortunately, 99% of the American corporations don't get to enjoy the fruit of the industrial espionage. Only HUGE industrial complexes (such as Boeing, Google, Corning, Citibank) get to benefit from the gems NSA manage to gather.

That is why, even today, most of the SMEs in America are still struggling, but on the other hand, those HUMONGOUS corporations grow leaps and bounds.

Re:America Inc. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079669)

So, you are saying it really is not a free market?

It's a free market ! (5, Insightful)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about 3 months ago | (#46079739)

It's a free market all right, it's a free "to spy on everybody and steal their secret" market !!

Re:It's a free market ! (1)

Jawnn (445279) | about 3 months ago | (#46080145)

I know you're being sarcastic (in a way) but a market with the government of the largest world power as a player is anything but free. Still, here's betting that the fan boys of free market mythology still don't get it.

Re:America Inc. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079761)

That's not a moon and there is no spoon.

nothing really new in centuries (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079835)

maybe the zeus weapon http://www.globalresearch.ca/weather-warfare-beware-the-us-military-s-experiments-with-climatic-warfare/7561 ... accounting problems still http://rt.com/business/us-unemployment-economy-crisis-assistance-006/our preferences; mlk http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mlk%20speech&sm=3 jfk http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jfk%20speech&sm=3 world's local hero http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=scott%20olsen&sm=3

easy way to stop being sick overlooked on purpose http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stem%20cells&sm=3 no healing begins until the bleeding stops

Re:America Inc. (1, Troll)

cold fjord (826450) | about 3 months ago | (#46079971)

Only HUGE industrial complexes (such as Boeing, Google, Corning, Citibank) get to benefit from the gems NSA manage to gather.

I'm sure you must have some proof of that. Care to share it?

Re:America Inc. (1, Troll)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about 3 months ago | (#46079987)

Edward Snowden can't go home. I still can. I do not want to find myself lock out of my own country - America.

At least not yet.

try going outdoors from time to time (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46080011)

maybe even look up at the sky...... more than once a year while driving about aimlessly

Re:try going outdoors from time to time (1)

Luckyo (1726890) | about 3 months ago | (#46080153)

I wonder if you even understand that this is a threat of political assassination rather than a statement about someone being a nerd in today's world?

nazi style assassin nations (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46080201)

a matter of coming home,, or homecomings, feeling safe from abuse etc... http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=scott%20olsen&sm=3

A symbiotic relationship (5, Insightful)

rmdingler (1955220) | about 3 months ago | (#46079597)

This actually makes perfect sense.

There has existed a perception that large corporate compilers of information reluctantly acquiesced to the full might of national security orders and subpoenas..

What's in it for me? is a sweet, sweet incentivizer, too.

Re:A symbiotic relationship (5, Insightful)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 3 months ago | (#46079743)

It's not normally the same companies. Mostly defence contractors get the benefits, which sort-of makes sense as much of the US military depends on the products from these industries, and so if you squint enough it looks like a national security concern.

more like polybiotic? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079977)

that's what my friend shaves with pliers says. we become one with petroleum products in this episode rendering us nearly waterproof at some stage of our devolution? advanced prosperitarism is a tradeoff?

Re:A symbiotic relationship (1, Troll)

cold fjord (826450) | about 3 months ago | (#46080165)

This actually makes perfect sense.

There has existed a perception that large corporate compilers of information reluctantly acquiesced to the full might of national security orders and subpoenas..

What's in it for me? is a sweet, sweet incentivizer, too.

So, did Snowden release any documents as proof? I don't recall seeing any. If the data isn't passed to corporations that wouldn't seem to be very useful.

So what else is new? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079605)

Edward Snowden says [something something NSA evil something something]

Well, given the world hasn't yet changed and America is deep in Super Bowl preparation mode, I think Snowden's officially fallen into "so what else is new" territory by dragging things out way the hell too long for the attention span of the American public required to make any such changes.

Re:So what else is new? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079745)

I think if he "spilled" too much at once most people would be overwhelmed by it all. Sometimes slow and patient is the best approach.

And let's not forget that as long as the NSA knows he still has something to reveal from his encrypted caches they aren't going to kill him.

Outside the range? (1, Funny)

Sarten-X (1102295) | about 3 months ago | (#46079611)

Assuming the espionage is purely separate from any military programs, American companies get the ability to build products Americans rely on, rather than having American life be dependent on foreign companies which might not be able or willing to export during World War 3. And somehow that's not a part of national security?

Re:Outside the range? (5, Insightful)

SirGarlon (845873) | about 3 months ago | (#46079635)

If you accept that argument, then all economic activity falls under the umbrella of national security, and the Constitution goes out the window.

Oh, I see what you did there.

Re:Outside the range? (2)

Sarten-X (1102295) | about 3 months ago | (#46079813)

Cute, but no [c2.com].

Spying on one uncooperative American company to help a favored American competitor wouldn't really help national security as much. The balance of economic power between nations would be unchanged.

Offhand, I don't know of any section of the Constitution that would be affected here. The Constitution doesn't actually afford any protection for foreign nations, but I'm sure the hordes of wishful thinkers will insist otherwise.

Re:Outside the range? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079655)

Xi Jinping, is that you?

Also, it would appear that the consumer culture has finally completely taken over if we are willing to use state sponsored stealing from others as long as we get to keep our stuff.

Re:Outside the range? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079663)

Yes, i guess causing WW3 is part of national security.

Re:Outside the range? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079675)

According to your argument in preparation for World War 3 anything goes? So for reasons of national security the US should secure rare earths in China, oil from the middle east, uranium from Australia, and let us not forget Helium-3 from the moon without regarding what any other nation might think about this.
This is a brilliant strategy. But not for preparing US citizens for WW3 but to create enough tension that it might actually happen...

I don't care for your vision of America (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079695)

If America with all our resources can't work out some cheap knock-off without resorting to industrial espionage, we deserve to fail.

Let's be honest though, the NSA serves only a small portion of our population and sees the rest of us as their adversary.

Re:I don't care for your vision of America (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079925)

Let's be honest though, the NSA serves only a small portion of our population and sees the rest of us as their adversary.

The NSA serves nobody but itself. It's in its self-interest to siphon off as much tax payer money as possible but the control structures that need to be greased for that are deliberately removed from the control and oversight of the tax payer.

That's not all too different from how secret services in other countries operate and partly hard to avoid if the "secret" is supposed to make some kind of sense.

What's different in the U.S.A., however, is that the amount of money the secret services burn through without basic oversight is a significant portion of the nation's income, to a degree where it endangers the national finances as well as international relations.

The NSA is out of control by design, but it is taking down the whole nation, and that's causing more damage than good to its ulterior justification of providing a net benefit to the U.S.A.

Re:Outside the range? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079725)

Judging by how utterly common foreign made goods are in America, I'd say they're failing if that's truly their goal. I don't think that's what their goal is - I think their goal is to simply benefit the American economy in all trade wherever possible. We know about the NSA's shenanigans with AirBus and the petrol companies in Brazil which lends credence to that.

Re:Outside the range? (5, Interesting)

Xest (935314) | about 3 months ago | (#46079751)

Well that depends, if you got a situation where America is artificially taking work away from other nations by simply stealing their knowledge, product designs and so forth then that might mean those nations become less stable and more likely to want to hurt America when they find out the only reason they're poor and unemployed is because America stole from them.

Not to mention the harm this does for it's ability to partake in international politics, how silly will it look telling China off for manipulating it's currency to it's benefit when America has similarly been artificially propping it's economy up simply by stealing from everyone else? It's a dangerous game as if America wants to get in a race to the bottom it's going to lose hard because countries like India and China will be able to cope with reduced living standards far more than Americans will be able to without rising up and rioting. Those countries also have far less scruples about stealing from the US. You think China will now have any reservations about hacking US companies? It was supposedly doing so before but now it doesn't even need to care if it gets caught as it can just say it's fair play whilst America if it wants to be taken seriously still needs to retain some semblance of decency.

Or in other words, engaging in this sort of subversive manner against foreign states might be exactly the sort of thing that starts World War 3 creating such instability and such threat to the US in the first place.

Re:Outside the range? (1)

cold fjord (826450) | about 3 months ago | (#46080275)

With the sanctions on Iran being softened, how likely do you think it is that Siemens is them parts that would work in centrifuges? As I recall there were many European firms that helped Saddam in his day.

Re:Outside the range? (-1, Flamebait)

aslashdotaccount (539214) | about 3 months ago | (#46080297)

Assuming all this is actually what happens. That America is actually the leach and that countries like China were the real inventors of bleeding edge technology. I mean, what did America come up with anyway, aside from a few things like capacitive touch-screens, the Internet (even if a couple of British gentlemen helped), flying contraptions, and a few other insignificant gadgets.

Re:Outside the range? (5, Interesting)

AmiMoJo (196126) | about 3 months ago | (#46079777)

That's not what the stolen information is used for. It just saves US companies from having to spend money on R&D to develop their own solutions, or helps them win contracts overseas.

Besides which the NSA made sure that American products are compromised by weakening security protocols and not notifying companies about backdoors. Worse still since Snowden was able to gain access to all this information relatively easily it is probably safe to assume that foreign agencies have their own spies collecting it too, so know all about the NSA backdoors and vulnerabilities they discovered.

Re:Outside the range? (1)

Sarten-X (1102295) | about 3 months ago | (#46079997)

It just saves US companies from having to spend money on R&D to develop their own solutions, or helps them win contracts overseas.

...making the American companies more economically powerful, so other countries have more reason to ally with the US, while the US remains more economically independent. That's kinda the point, no?

so know all about the NSA backdoors and vulnerabilities they discovered.

Perhaps they do, but as long as remaining undetected is more important than using the information they have, they can't change their behavior. I seem to recall similar incidents in WWII, where the only way Americans were warned about German movements was through cracked Enigma messages. The Allies couldn't counteract, because that would let the Germans know they had broken the Enigma.

Re:Outside the range? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079815)

rather than having American life be dependent on foreign companies which might not be able or willing to export during World War 3. And somehow that's not a part of national security?

It certainly is, just like recruiting twelve-year olds into the German army was a part of national security in the death throes of the Third Reich.

If you are down to your last straw and throw all law and restraint overboard, then yes, this is part of "national security" as defined in relation to a "nation" that no longer is defined according to its laws and constitution but by loosely shared desperation.

Is the U.S.A. in this state already, in its final stages before capitulation? If that is so, it would appear that Osama Bin Laden prevailed in his fight and managed to take the U.S. nation down with him.

If not, get the hell rid of the enemies of the U.S. destroying it and its ideals and constitution from inside its government like a jewel wasp zombifying a cockroach by taking over its central nervous system.

German transcript (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079627)

Can be found here http://www.tagesschau.de/snowden-interview-deutsch100.pdf

Gee... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079637)

...tell us something we didn't already know.

Most governments, I'd reckon, do the same.

Re:Gee... (1)

lxs (131946) | about 3 months ago | (#46079793)

No they don't, but you can keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

Re:Gee... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079823)

The AC reckons most governments do the same. Well that's alright then.

For a long time (0, Redundant)

guygo (894298) | about 3 months ago | (#46079641)

This is nothing new. Ike's "Military Industrial Complex" has been getting the fruits of the NSA's labor since its inception. Gotta keep ahead of those Russkies (or Chinese, or Germans, or ...), ya' know.

*Not* news. (0)

Mashiki (184564) | about 3 months ago | (#46079651)

All national security agencies engage in industrial espionage. Whether the NSA, CSIS, or MI6.

Re:*Not* news -- no kidding it's TIMOTHY (2, Insightful)

phayes (202222) | about 3 months ago | (#46079691)

But only Timothy engages in systematic linkbaiting & selection of the summaries that try to sensationalize what everyone already knows.

Re:*Not* news -- no kidding it's TIMOTHY (3, Insightful)

cold fjord (826450) | about 3 months ago | (#46080309)

I find that there is no shortage of false things that "everyone already knows" on Slashdot.

Re:*Not* news. (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079703)

Fair enough, but you can't get upset the next time China is caught spying on U.S. companies.

Re:*Not* news. (0)

Big Hairy Ian (1155547) | about 3 months ago | (#46079807)

Indeed anyone who believes anything Snowden has made public so far is a revelation really has wool stapled to their eyebrows.

Re:*Not* news. (1)

SpzToid (869795) | about 3 months ago | (#46079931)

'All the professional bicycle racers in the Tour de France cheat.'

      -Lance Armstrong (after he said a *million* times he didn't cheat, and after he got caught)

Enjoy your legacy Lance for the rest of your life and then some.

Ever heard of Locust Funds? (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079659)

Get ready for leaks about NSA using spy data to short stocks on major stock exchanges around the world! Who said crime didn't pay?

why the soap opera ? (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079721)

Why are we getting like 1 news a month from Mr. Snowden ?
This is turning into a media show...

Re:why the soap opera ? (1)

Maritz (1829006) | about 3 months ago | (#46079833)

You honestly can't work out why? It's pretty damn obvious why.

Re:why the soap opera ? (1)

aslashdotaccount (539214) | about 3 months ago | (#46079869)

If we could have figured out what George Lucas was up to, Star Wars just wouldn't have been as much fun - or wouldn't continue to drive us mad with anticipation after Disney took over.

Re:why the soap opera ? (5, Informative)

LoRdTAW (99712) | about 3 months ago | (#46079903)

The idea is that if everything is released at once then the story will ruffle some feathers for only a few weeks/months and die out quickly.

By releasing their dirty secrets one at a time and once a month, the story can be kept in the media for years (or so Snowden says). This ensures the pressure is kept on the NSA and government to do something. Though, so far the crooks are trying to justify everything they do and are quite defiant in defending their practices.

Re:why the soap opera ? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46080141)

Why are we getting like 1 news a month from Mr. Snowden ?
This is turning into a media show...

Probably to let us know that he is still alive and the US Government has not had him assassinated yet. Also I would bet that continually embarrassing the Obama regime is required to maintain his political asylum status with Russia.

What's next? (1)

Racerdude (1006357) | about 3 months ago | (#46079753)

Okay so spying to safeguard national security makes sense. Even if it means stepping on the toes of your allies... perhaps? Now we hear of NSA involved in industrial espionage. For the good of US companies so that makes sense. How far away is spying for political gain? Spying for the party currently in power against political opponents?

Re:What's next? (5, Insightful)

Maritz (1829006) | about 3 months ago | (#46079861)

Being deceptive and manipulative works out great when everyone thinks you're legit. Once you're outed as a conniving liar though, the consequences aren't always fun. I suspect the NSA/USA's 'spy-on-everyone-including-your-friends' tactic is in the process of backfiring spectacularly.

Even friends and allies do it among each other (5, Funny)

vikingpower (768921) | about 3 months ago | (#46079765)

I once worked for one of the companies involved in the JSF project. As soon as we knew that Lockheed Martin had a web app for performing a certain task, I was asked by my boss to get the entire web app's jar files, reverse engineer it, and tell him how good or bad LM's implementation was. The company for which I worked then went on to steal LM's implementation and incorporate it into its own commercial product.

Which, and this is the best part, they then sold. To Lockheed Martin.

Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079801)

Shouldn't you have AC'd this particular bit of info?

Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other (2)

vikingpower (768921) | about 3 months ago | (#46079811)

No. Did I name anyone ? Any company ? Any country, even ? And then... I may have my reasons not go AC, you know ;-)

Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other (1)

aslashdotaccount (539214) | about 3 months ago | (#46079817)

Hasn't corporate America been doing this for ages? Ask Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. Better still, ask Bob Metcalfe (where Bill Gates got NTLM from). And if you want global examples look at Huawei. However, I doubt this is the scope of espionage that Snowden's referring to, which would be laughable if it was.

Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other (-1, Offtopic)

aslashdotaccount (539214) | about 3 months ago | (#46079847)

Shouldn't have said Steve Jobs, God rest his soul. Sincere apologies to whomever is offended.

Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46080147)

You're cunt, and I'm offended by your saying a. "God rest his soul" (there is no god, and if there is, because SteveJobs was a bad person, he'll be resting in a bad place), b. you apologized for a meaningless reason -- anyone who got offended needs to be kicked in the head.

You also need to be kicked in the head.

Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other (2)

It doesn't come easy (695416) | about 3 months ago | (#46079819)

One has to wonder how much of the world's technological advances was (is?) actually dependent on IP theft? I can imagine a great deal during the cold war for sure. What about now?

Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079975)

One has to wonder how much of the world's technological advances was (is?) actually dependent on IP theft?

Which is a good reason to rein in the absurd extents that "IP" laws are allowed to cover: they benefit the crooks more than the fair players. Of course, it's a general property of laws that they affect those who keep them more than those who don't.

But once you reach the "don't be silly, everybody does it" area, the laws disproportionally disadvantage the rare fair player.

Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079827)

A moment to be proud of

Keep the love coming! (5, Interesting)

LF11 (18760) | about 3 months ago | (#46079795)

This just gets more and more rich as time goes. So what if every spy agency does it? That does not make it right. It is time for ordinary people to figure out whether they want this kind of action being done by their governments.

I am very happy Snowden is choosing to release this material one drop at a time. It is like Chinese water torture against the intelligence apparatus. Please, keep the love coming!

I think after the Murrah bombing, 9/11, and the marathon bombing, we have established that the security agencies are not capable of stopping actual terrorist activity against American citizens. Not when every supposed thwarting is really just an FBI set-up. So it is time for us to really consider what these agencies are actually doing, since they are apparently not stopping terrorism.

Re:Keep the love coming! (0)

aslashdotaccount (539214) | about 3 months ago | (#46079863)

Once again, what does this have to do with ordinary citizens? Yes, agreed that Snowden's disclosure of PRISM was relevant, but he's just grasping at straws with this one.

Re:Keep the love coming! (4, Insightful)

LF11 (18760) | about 3 months ago | (#46079909)

Because ordinary citizens -- both American and foreign -- have jobs with these corporations, jobs that are affected by industrial espionage?

Because we have expectations of privacy (in the absence of wrongdoing) and that expectation applies to corporations as well?

Because industrial espionage is the motherlode of data in the age of the Internet...can you imagine the damage if Snowden were corrupted by Chinese intelligence services? Or Russian? Indeed, what if that is the case with other NSA personnel already?

Because an intelligence agency willing to engage in corporate profiteering is showing a callous disrespect for law, privacy, and ethics?

If an intelligence agency has freed itself from the bonds of law and public oversight, how far will it go? Will it be used against a populist target such as the "1%" or against a political target such as Occupy? Indeed, is it already being used for such? (Michael Hastings!)

Stop being an apologist, recognize the cancer for what it is.

Re:Keep the love coming! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079995)

Once again, what does this have to do with ordinary citizens?

Aren't ordinary citizens employed by the organisations that were spied on? Wasn't their work stollen?

Re:Keep the love coming! (1)

aslashdotaccount (539214) | about 3 months ago | (#46080027)

Tell me which organization lets full-time employees own IPs of projects they work on for their employers?

Re:Keep the love coming! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46080173)

Tell me which organization lets full-time employees own IPs of projects they work on for their employers?

Spy on the company and, in most of the cases, you'll weaken it (by hurting a healthy competition). Weaken it and you'll reduce the chances their employees are going to have a job tomorrow.
There are more ways spying deprives workers from the benefits of their effort.

Re:Keep the love coming! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46080029)

Yup, this is treason and not helping his case at all.

As long as these foreign companies sell their products to dictators and countries trying to build nuclear weapons, it is a good idea to know all of the specs and flaws in them.

Re:Keep the love coming! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46080213)

As long as these foreign companies sell their products to dictators and countries trying to build nuclear weapons, it is a good idea to know all of the specs and flaws in them.

Careful, buddy. China may not like US helping the Saudi (they are dictators, you know?). By your measure, US would be fair game for China.

Re:Keep the love coming! (3, Informative)

jareth-0205 (525594) | about 3 months ago | (#46080105)

Once again, what does this have to do with ordinary citizens? Yes, agreed that Snowden's disclosure of PRISM was relevant, but he's just grasping at straws with this one.

That's pretty extreme myopia to decide that it doesn't matter because 'ordinary citizens' aren't affected... it doesn't have to directly immediately target normal people to affect them.

But to answer your question, ordinary citizens *are* directly affected, they have jobs in these companies. Ordinary citizens are shareholders of these companies (Even non-explicit shareholders, of you have a pension then you have shares one way or another).

Re:Keep the love coming! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46080191)

The ordinary citizens are supposed to be the ones in power, via elected representatives. The described behaviour may damage the international relations of the USA significantly, so the citizens should know of it. Or, alternatively, at least the citizens should not be lied about it being all about terrorists and such.

Re:Keep the love coming! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46080239)

Once again, what does this have to do with ordinary citizens?

Nothing, ordinary citizen. In the interest of national security, please stop listening to enemy propaganda and report any neighbors that continue listening to the enemy to the nearest NSA office. It is your national duty to assist with curbing the Jewish World Conspirat... wait, wrong buzzphrase, International Terrorism and report all enemy sympathizers.

Your full cooperation is required for letting the U.S.A. stay the greatest of all nations.

Re:Keep the love coming! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46080263)

What I find more disturbing in all this, isn't that the NSA or other intelligence agencies are participating in industrial espionage. That's a likely outcome of their position for investigation given our current state of technology. What disturbing to me, is that US Corporations are likely directly benefiting from this. What's worse, if it did come to light with direct evidence of it occuring, knife in hand over the body, you probably wouldn't hear a single complaint against that fact in the US news media from now till the end of time. And Wall Street likely wouldn't bat an eye. A few people would probably short sell, and then the stock would go up.

I'm starting to think that capitalist ideology, has blurred the line of seperation between Government and private industry. Perhaps it was never there, and likely hidden in legalese, masked by rules on the outside, but fully acceptable beneath. Or, perhaps my expectation of how the most powerful nation in the world, should behave, is completely unrealistic. It actually contains morals, ethics, and respect for other nations. Ho, hum....

Just let the Snowden 'acid drip' continue. This is worth it on every front!

Re:Keep the love coming! (-1, Troll)

cavreader (1903280) | about 3 months ago | (#46080321)

"So what if every spy agency does it? That does not make it right."

It doesn't make it right but your opinion is meaningless unless you are willing to put all these issues into it's proper context.

Industrial Espionage Begins With The Brain (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079837)

Modern industrial espionage by the US is not limited to stealing documents from computers. A more modern process is to use reflected RF to decode the internal thoughts of key industry members, such as scientists, executives and board members. The computer systems then have the ideas at their conception, which they then inject into the minds of staff in US-based companies, along with any additional improvements the AI has made. A similar technique is used to undermine business ventures and deals to tip the balance in favor of US-based companies by manipulating parties to negotiations. That's not to say that all US-based companies benefit, there is obviously a preference for particular groups aligned with the defense sectors.

RF shielding is of little use either.

Its one of the biggest scams on the planet at the minute and companies really need to step up and defend their interests.

Really?!?!?!?! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079865)

Now I'm extremely convinced this man is mentally ill or is under use of illicit drugs. Someone please tell him that He won't get any Russian nor German nookie doing saying things like that. What's next? He will spread news that every computer in the world have a key logger and there's an hilarious fat guy reading everything I type?

C'mon!!!! :D

Wow! This is a surprise..... (-1, Troll)

i_want_you_to_throw_ (559379) | about 3 months ago | (#46079877)

said no one ever. Most governments do what they can to help the home team. The U.S. is not alone, it just has better tools than every other government.

So? (-1, Redundant)

bickerdyke (670000) | about 3 months ago | (#46079883)

This is probably nothing that should surprise or alert the average US citizen.

But neither should they be surprised when other countries feel pretty much pissed of by that. Nor should they be surprised when other countries also start to play by the rules the US set. Wasn't it the US gouvernment that declared hacker attacks as comparable to other attacks and threatened conventional military retaliation to cyber attacks? And who is caught with his hand in the cookie jar now?

Re:So? (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | about 3 months ago | (#46079973)

This is probably nothing that should surprise or alert the average US citizen.

I have a vivid memory of watching congressional testimony by top Boeing executives over 20 years ago where they swore up and down that they did not want any help from american spy agencies. I'm sure they were talking about Airbus. I don't remember exactly what prompted congress to get involved, maybe it was the outing of some french industrial espionage that had recently come to light.

Re:So? (1)

stoploss (2842505) | about 3 months ago | (#46080081)

This is probably nothing that should surprise or alert the average US citizen.

I have a vivid memory of watching congressional testimony by top Boeing executives over 20 years ago where they swore up and down that they did not want any help from american spy agencies.

I know I'm cynical, but I always sigh when I see testimony from business leaders or politicians. We all know they are pathological liars, so why do we have to put ourselves through this charade where we summon them simply to have them look us in the eyes and lie to us?

It's... masochistic.

U.S stealing trade and tech (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46079915)

It's funny to hear U.S gov and confused Americans say the Chinese are stealing technology, a discussion and argument that bears no logic whatsoever, but at the same time they're doing everything they can to get information and secrets on trade, technology etc. while saying it's to protect the U.S. Hilarious.

Been happening for years (2)

Maury Markowitz (452832) | about 3 months ago | (#46079943)

I recall Canadian Echelon operators spying on their US counterparts to win a grain trade deal with China in the 1970s.

Nice! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#46080009)

I'd been really concerned about the Chinese government sponsored industrial espionage and was worried what a competitive disadvantage it was for the US. But now that I know the US does it too, I feel a lot better.

It's easy to 'justify' (2)

lewscroo (695355) | about 3 months ago | (#46080117)

It is probably pretty easy to 'justify' this type of national security corporate espionage in the name of national security. This type of corporate espionage was probably able to help us create the Stuxnet virus as that used vulnerabilities in some pretty specific hardware to do it's job and the companies themselves are not always going to help out the US Government, especially if they are a foreign entity. So they could easily say there is a national security need for this type of information collection as it could be used for similar reasons, though there are plenty of other reasons I'm sure we could come up with to 'justify' it too. I mean, this is a country where we are able to 'justify' the need to collect everyone's phone call information even with nothing to show for it.

IP treaties (2)

gmuslera (3436) | about 3 months ago | (#46080181)

What will happen with international treaties related with intellectual property when one of the main proposals of them officially don't respect the intellectual property of te companies from the other signers? Should be repelled all around the world as bad jokes?

a thought... (1)

EngineeringStudent (3003337) | about 3 months ago | (#46080285)

I was thinking about the movie where the NSA could spread a virus through the power supply.
I was also jus thinking how security researchers just found a virus that could spread by sound over disconnencted systems.
I then also realized that certain types of power supplies have consistent bad acoustic behavior - I can hear their caps.

Putting this together makes for a worm that on the PC checks the nature of the power supply, and can spread to phones/tablets/other PC by the power supply.

[1] http://www.extremetech.com/com... [extremetech.com]
[2] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt02... [imdb.com]
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D... [wikipedia.org]

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