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Finnish Police Board Wants Justification For Wikipedia's Fundraising Campaign

timothy posted about 8 months ago | from the citizens-united dept.

Government 252

linjaaho writes "Yesterday, the admin list of Finnish language Wikipedia received a request for comment from the National Police Board of Finland. The Police Board claims that the fundraising message appearing on the top of the Wikipedia pages is illegal fundraising and is punishable by criminal law. The Police Board asks how much money have they raised and ask for justification for the campaign. This is not the first time the Police Board has attacked fundraising; in 2012, a crowdfunded textbook Kickstarter project was delayed by a similar request for comment."

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wikipedia (5, Insightful)

CurryCamel (2265886) | about 8 months ago | (#46195715)

That reminds me, I should make a donation.

Re:wikipedia (-1, Offtopic)

CheezburgerBrown . (3417019) | about 8 months ago | (#46195941)

Yeah, Fuck Beta, Let's support Wikipedia!

Re:wikipedia (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196337)

I thought the whole fuck beta thing is over with now? Didn't they already indicate in the official response the whole thing was just to instigate feedback and everyone hyper reacted?

Re:wikipedia (2, Informative)

paiute (550198) | about 8 months ago | (#46196509)

I thought the whole fuck beta thing is over with now? Didn't they already indicate in the official response the whole thing was just to instigate feedback and everyone hyper reacted?

Nice try, Dice managment.

Re:wikipedia (2)

lister king of smeg (2481612) | about 8 months ago | (#46196541)

I thought the whole fuck beta thing is over with now? Didn't they already indicate in the official response the whole thing was just to instigate feedback and everyone hyper reacted?

They did respond. I quit protesting at that point figuring we made our thoughts clear and they would not continue untill things had been fixed. Others are protesting until the beta is completely dropped.

I wish that they would post on topic then at the end of their post, put their beta protest.

Fuck beta (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195739)

Also, fuck beta too.

Re:Fuck beta (1)

JockTroll (996521) | about 8 months ago | (#46196641)

No, don't fuck it. Seriously, you'd get AIDS.

Tyranny (5, Insightful)

MikeRT (947531) | about 8 months ago | (#46195743)

In Finland, it is illegal to plead with audience to raise funds without a special permission issued by the Police Board.

If that is even half true, that's just tyrannical. Think about it. That means even a church in Finland doing disaster relief cannot call together a congregational meeting and ask for funds without getting a "by your leave, sire" from a bunch of police bureaucrats.

Re:Tyranny (5, Informative)

pijokela (462279) | about 8 months ago | (#46195793)

Well, the point is that you fill an application and get the permit to raise funds. All kinds of non-profit organizations get them all the time. If wikipedia had done that the Finnish police would be quite happy. The problem is that Wikimedia is registered in California and they obviously do not care about Finnish law and I have no idea of how the police think they can force a US organization to comply with the rules if all the servers and staff are outside Finland.

The issue with the kickstarted texkbook was different because it was not a non-profit organisation. In Finland you need to crowdsourcing very carefully so that it is clear that you are selling a product and not raising money. Jolla did it with their phone so it can be done, but just using kickstarter as it is is illegal, because it is too much like charity for funding a regular company.

Re:Tyranny (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195853)

They most likely thought that the Finnish version of Wikipedia is run from Finland. It's not uncommon, a lot of people incorrectly think that there's a connection between geographical location and language. Just because a site is in Finnish doesn't mean that it has anything to do with Finland, it is likely to find a lot of users in Finland but that's about it.

Re:Tyranny (1)

livingdeadline (884462) | about 8 months ago | (#46195961)

I'm not sure about this, but as little as it makes sense, my guess is that the Finnish police somehow interprets Wikipedia's donation drive as being organised on Finnish soil although the legal entity is in California. Which sort of is the case, assuming that the copy for the donation banner is translated and/or the markup for the banner is included to codebase of the Finnish Wikipedia version by volunteers physically located in Finland.

This is the kind of knee-jerk bureaucracy we have to deal with in this country.

Re: Tyranny (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195875)

Precisely. If I want to fundraise in most states I need permission from the states board. It doesn't matter if I'm already a 501c3, permission must be granted.

This is to protect the people donating money and is not very difficult to do. This is a non-story to people who have dealt with these regulations before.

I guess tho that justification is difficult concept for geeks to grok.

Re: Tyranny (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196497)

This is to protect the people donating money and is not very difficult to do. This is a non-story to people who have dealt with these regulations before.

From what? Their own stupidity?

Re: Tyranny (2)

toopok4k3 (809683) | about 8 months ago | (#46196609)

Yes.

Re:Tyranny (1)

gnasher719 (869701) | about 8 months ago | (#46196017)

Well, the point is that you fill an application and get the permit to raise funds. All kinds of non-profit organizations get them all the time. If wikipedia had done that the Finnish police would be quite happy. The problem is that Wikimedia is registered in California and they obviously do not care about Finnish law and I have no idea of how the police think they can force a US organization to comply with the rules if all the servers and staff are outside Finland.

"Forcing" may be a problem, but generally the principle is that a possibly illegal action "happens" where it takes effect, so if people in Finland read the donation requests, then the Finnish police has the right and duty to act on it.

So worst case, the Finnish police could ask Finnish ISPs to prevent access to a website that breaks the law in Finland.

Re:Tyranny (5, Insightful)

zieroh (307208) | about 8 months ago | (#46196207)

"Forcing" may be a problem, but generally the principle is that a possibly illegal action "happens" where it takes effect, so if people in Finland read the donation requests, then the Finnish police has the right and duty to act on it.

So worst case, the Finnish police could ask Finnish ISPs to prevent access to a website that breaks the law in Finland.

NO. This is not just wrong, it's also incredibly stupid. Think about what you're saying: If every website must comply with every law in every country where the website can be seen, then we end up with a web that is the lowest common denominator of all the tyrannical laws in the world. A website in Finland does not get to dictate the terms of a website anywhere outside of Finland. Period.

Re:Tyranny (2)

Reemi (142518) | about 8 months ago | (#46196379)

A website OUTSIDE a sovereign state does not get to dictate the laws WITHIN said state.

Wikipedia, not any other organization has the right to do business on their terms just because they can hide themselves behind a server.

Note, the Finnish police asked for clarification and if Wikipedia answers it will not accept payments from Finnish citizens then there is no problem. If they want to receive payments from them, they will have to follow the Finnish laws. Period.

Re: Tyranny (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196535)

sorry, you should have ended you comment with comma, because getting the last word entirely wrongdoesn't cut it. Now the social facists in finnland may be able to take a 30% cut of my dividend in nokia, but as far as the finns sending me their money cause i ask for it, i want to go on record, since they asked for comment - go fuck yourselves finnish nazi socialist brown shirt beureaucrats. Last time i checked if you want to interject yourself into the foreign affairs of other nations you need to have a U and an S in your name, that and a working nuclear sub fleet. so for now, keep sending your money, i'm gonna give it to slashdot to help fix their fucked up beta. and by fix i mean buy a really big dumpster.

Re:Tyranny (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196695)

So close: A website outside a sovereign state isn't ruled by laws within that state.

Re:Tyranny (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196681)

The message has been translated to finish, most countries would see that translation as an effort to reach a Finnish audience - giving the local police jurisdiction. I have seen quite a few sites and forums where language specific sub boards where removed to avoid exactly that.

then we end up with a web that is the lowest common denominator of all the tyrannical laws in the world.

Or the websites don't care if tyrannical country x bans access and just ignores it, if you have not noticed China already does that en mass.

Re: Tyranny (1)

SLi (132609) | about 8 months ago | (#46196331)

They ohappens y won't be easily able to go after Wikimedia Foundation itself, but they might be able to go after volunteers who live in Finland. I think particularly vulnerable would be the person who translated the fundraising notice to Finnish, if he happens to live in Finland.

Not that I really expect this to lead to much. I think it's entirely plausible that even if he got charged and found guilty, the court would decide to not punish him (and quite certainly he wouldn't get more than a small fine in the tens or hundreds of euros range).

Re:Tyranny (1)

westlake (615356) | about 8 months ago | (#46196725)

I have no idea of how the police think they can force a US organization to comply with the rules if all the servers and staff are outside Finland.

If you are actively soliciting funds from Finland, I am betting that you have to comply with Finnish export controls, laws governing international banking, commercial paper, charitable solicitation and so on. The Finnish bank will refuse payment.

Re:Tyranny (3, Informative)

Anssi55 (729722) | about 8 months ago | (#46195837)

It is true.

Actually, AFAIK (and according to googling) churches in Finland can't even get the permit as they don't satisfy the "yleishyödyllisyys" (general benefit for society) requirement to get the permit. They co-operate with separate associations/foundations exist for that purpose, though, e.g. Finn Church Aid [kirkonulkomaanapu.fi] .

There is a change to the law being planned that would allow churches and universities to conduct fundraisers, but no big overhaul that would actually be needed for the out-of-date law...

Unofficial English translation of the current Money Collection Act by the Ministry of the Interior] [finlex.fi]

Getting a permit requires a corporation or association registered in Finland, so they actually can't give the permit to Wikimedia Foundation even if they applied for one. The permit is also not given to private individuals, so you can't e.g. have a Paypal donate button without violating the law.

Re:Tyranny (2)

gerddie (173963) | about 8 months ago | (#46196043)

>Actually, [...] churches [...] don't satisfy the "yleishyödyllisyys" (general benefit for society) requirement [...]

A keen observation.

Re:Tyranny (1)

PsychoSlashDot (207849) | about 8 months ago | (#46195877)

If that is even half true, that's just tyrannical. Think about it. That means even a church in Finland doing disaster relief cannot call together a congregational meeting and ask for funds without getting a "by your leave, sire" from a bunch of police bureaucrats.

I don't think so. Regulated fund-raising might not be such a bad thing. Certainly it'd reduce fraud if folks had to demonstrate a legitimate need accountability structure.

On an unrelated note, since I don't live in Finland I was wondering if you'd like to donate to my cause? It's called:

Prevent Children From Getting Sick, Ever BBMAH*
Insert a bunch of statistics here about how kids get sick all the time, from all sorts of preventable causes. Seriously, a big wall of text going on and on about the needless suffering of children throughout the world. Add a bunch of pictures of kids with sores on them, maybe flies crawling around. Basically National Geographic meets Apocalypse Now.
*By Buying Me A House

Re:Tyranny (1)

Reemi (142518) | about 8 months ago | (#46195889)

It also means that when I donate money it is on record what the purpose of the donation is and who is receiving the funds. This could very well protect the Finns from fund-raising scams.

Calling it a tyranny without considering the other side of the story nor knowing on how hard it is to receive such permit is.... (I'm just lacking the words for it.)

Re:Tyranny (1)

zieroh (307208) | about 8 months ago | (#46196231)

It's tyranny when petty bureaucrats in one country attempt to force their laws on the rest of the world.

Re:Tyranny (1)

JaredOfEuropa (526365) | about 8 months ago | (#46196611)

Calling it a tyranny without considering the other side of the story nor knowing on how hard it is to receive such permit is.

No. Tyranny is more about the means than it is about the end goal (and a lot of tyrannies got started in the pursuit of lofty goals). Protecting Finns from fundraising scams is a worthy goal, but how you implement that protection makes all the difference. Going after actual scamsters and warning people through public service messages is a lot less tyrannical than censoring websites or requiring permits for fundraisers.

Re:Tyranny (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196187)

That also means that if there is news about a disaster on the TV, a guy cannot hold a sign on the street with a box saying "give money to help out for the disaster".

Re:Tyranny (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196407)

Actually, they can. Collecting funds in religious society meetings is specifically listed as not covered by the law (Rahankeräyslaki 255/2006, 2 6.)

A story to watch... (5, Funny)

Smivs (1197859) | about 8 months ago | (#46195749)

...from Start to Finnish.

Re:A story to watch... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196113)

I guess a beta is somewhere between there.

Re:A story to watch... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196701)

What? No sunglasses?

YEAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH

I have no problem with this. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195751)

Wikipedia is a "truth by democracy" MMORPG run by an objectivist pornographer behaving like a charity.

It is a horrible step back from the 'net of the late '90s, where professionals and enthusiasts would build specialist web sites which were directly indexed and which were regarded as the first go-to point.

Not with a bang, but with a Beta. (-1, Offtopic)

emmagsachs (1024119) | about 8 months ago | (#46195753)

What company directs 25% of its users to a partially-working, not-ready-for-production website? Please realize that Beta will not have the features that we want, because it goes against Dice's plans for Slashdot. To their advertisers, Dice presents Slashdot as a "Social Media for B2B Technology" [slashdotmedia.com] platform. B2B - that's the reason Beta looks like a generic wordpress-based news site. A large precentage of the current userbase might be in IT, but /. is most certainly not a B2B site.

Nevertheless, Dice is desperate to make money off of Slashdot, since it has not lived up to their financial expectations, a fact that they have revealed in a press release [diceholdingsinc.com] detailing their performance in 2013:

Slashdot Media was acquired to provide content and services that are important to technology professionals in their everyday work lives and to leverage that reach into the global technology community benefiting user engagement on the Dice.com site. The expected benefits have started to be realized at Dice.com. However, advertising revenue has declined over the past year and there is no improvement expected in the future financial performance of Slashdot Media's underlying advertising business. Therefore, $7.2 million of intangible assets and $6.3 million of goodwill related to Slashdot Media were reduced to zero.

Beta is not a cosmetic change. It is a new design that deliberately ruins the one thing that makes /. what it is today -- the commenting system. There is nothing wrong with Slashdot, from the users' perspective, that demands breaking its foundations. As others have commented, this is an attempt to monetize /. at any any cost [slashdot.org] , and its users be damned. Dice views its users, the ones who create the site [slashdot.org] , as a passive audience. As such, it is interchangeable with its intended B2B crowd. We, the current users of Slashdot, are an obstacle in Dice's way.

That is why they ignore the detailed feedback they have received in the months since they first revealed Beta. That is also why they now disregard our grievances. Their claims of hearing us are a deliberate snow job. It is only pretense, since at the same time they openly admit that Classic will be cancelled soon [slashdot.org] :

"Most importantly, we want you to know that Classic Slashdot isn't going away until we're confident that the new site is ready.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Dice to fix Beta. Their vision of Slashdot is a crippled shadow of the site as it is today. Don't let them pull the wool over your eyes. Dice doesn't need us, and it wants us out.

Slashdice delenda est!

Re:Not with a bang, but with a Beta. (2)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 8 months ago | (#46195945)

What company directs 25% of its users to a partially-working, not-ready-for-production website?

Should the government have a monopoly on that?

Re:Not with a bang, but with a Beta. (1)

phayes (202222) | about 8 months ago | (#46195977)

Oh Bravo!

Re:Not with a bang, but with a Beta. (0, Troll)

TheloniousToady (3343045) | about 8 months ago | (#46196127)

Please realize that Beta will not have the features that we want, because it goes against Dice's plans for Slashdot.

You make some good points, but the thing I don't understand about this idea that Dice is intentionally repurposing Slashdot is that if they do so, they lose almost all the value of the existing site, leaving only a well known domain name and some sort of "brand". The former is easy to come by, and the latter is of no value if all its previous "audience" becomes disillusioned with it. So, can someone please explain to me why the deliberate destruction of Slashdot would be in Dice's business interest? Also, if that's what they wanted to do, why bother with a transition to a new format at all? Why not just pull the plug on the old site if you don't care about alienating the existing "audience" because you'll be doing something completely different with the domain?

It seems far more logical to me that they would try to retain the current "audience" as much as possible, which is where most of the value of the site is. If we assume they're losing money with the current format, it might be logical to for them to change formats, though there's a significant risk of alienating the current "audience" if they change it too much too fast, or otherwise handle the transition badly - as they've clearly done. As the old saying goes, "Don't ascribe to conspiracy what can be explained by incompetence."

So, personally, I think they want to restore profitability via a change in format (which may or may not work - probably not), while somehow retaining as much of the current "audience" as they can. That may be an impossible task, but if we assume they're currently losing money on Slashdot, they don't have much to lose by trying. At the very worst, they could make it break even by just shutting it down, then make a modest profit by selling the domain name for $100K or whatever.

Re:Not with a bang, but with a Beta. (0)

GNious (953874) | about 8 months ago | (#46196395)

So, can someone please explain to me why the deliberate destruction of Slashdot would be in Dice's business interest?

It is not business interest - someone at Dice got trolled on /. once, and is now taking revenge ...

Re:Not with a bang, but with a Beta. (0)

Qzukk (229616) | about 8 months ago | (#46196559)

It's a pump and dump from the inside. Dice wants out so they're trying to pump up the cash value of the site as much as possible, and cash value = advertisers. Who cares if the sucker they unload it onto loses their shirt when they find out the advertisers won't pay for ads on a site nobody uses.

Just for giggles, I loaded up The Consumerist for the first time in years. Years ago it was a respectable community with tens if not hundreds of comments on its posts [archive.org] . Then they went and completely wrecked their comment system. Today? The top post on page one has NINE comments. [consumerist.com] Out of 18 posts, there are 8 with ZERO comments.

Slashdot: THIS IS YOUR FUTURE. Nobody will click 45% of your stories!

Now true, they're a special case since they don't do advertising, so nobody cares if nobody has a reason to ever click through their story to read the comments, but it's proof that it has happened before and it WILL happen again if Slashdot continues on this path. By destroying the comment system Slashdot won't just decimate their pageviews, they'll obliterate them. The only way they'd be able to try to get people to click through to the story page is if they disabled the original article links in the main page, and that will completely ruin them as a news aggregator.

BETA sucks. (-1, Offtopic)

arisvega (1414195) | about 8 months ago | (#46195759)

It really does. It lacks functionality, and its main purpose is to make the "NEW! Fresh! Teen! Revamped!" slashdot to look hip on tablets and phones.

Re: BETA sucks. (1)

Sepodati (746220) | about 8 months ago | (#46195839)

What functionality is missing? All I see is bitching because its different or has whitespace.

Re: BETA sucks. (1)

arisvega (1414195) | about 8 months ago | (#46195885)

It breaks the moderating system. Would you like me to Google that for you?

Perhaps also bring you some coffee or tea while you wait?

Re: BETA sucks. (1)

Sepodati (746220) | about 8 months ago | (#46196029)

Coffee would be fine.

I don't have mod points, so I'm not sure what the issue with modding is.

Re: BETA sucks. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196155)

Here have mine, its a little too sweet for me.

The issues with the new beta aren't just the UI and appearance (which are a serious dumbdown, blog style, big pictured nothingness imo). Its why they are doing it. Did you not read the "WE HEAR YOU" statement? You're not really wanted in their new plan, the new slashlol is for the masses: like, share and subscribe! This will kill slashdot, as the resaon it exists, interesting posts, and comments that are easy to read, will be gone, along with all those who soon get bored of the masses'. "wow, I neva new a hard desk had spiny tings in, wwow!, lol! #noway!"

Go see what digg is like, its looks just like beta, and its actually like that!

Re: BETA sucks. (1)

Sepodati (746220) | about 8 months ago | (#46196291)

I read it. I read through the comments, too. More bitching with little discussion on what the actual issues are.

The only thing that would kill the place is if people can't comment. I agree that comments are what makes the place. Maybe moderation is second, but I normally browse with all comments visible, so moderation doesn't mean anything to me.

How about instead of posting "fuck beta" how about listing it at least linking to a discussion on the issues.

1. Can't link to comments. I see where that is often useful.
2. Nested comment boxes on mobile is horrible. The or four letters deep and I'm down to one word per line on the screen.
3. Something's wrong with moderation?

Re: BETA sucks. (0)

Sepodati (746220) | about 8 months ago | (#46196327)

2. Three or four layers deep, ...

Re: BETA sucks. (0)

Arker (91948) | about 8 months ago | (#46196173)

Yeah, the other poster mentioned it breaks the moderation system. The moderation system is what results (usually) in the better, more insightful, informative, or funny comments being modded up into the default view, making them easy to find.

The slashdot article is usually confused, muddled, horse crap but what makes the site interesting is that people that actually know what they are talking about will correct it, and explain it. Those posts get modded up, making them easy to find and read, making the entire thing worth visiting. This is the unique killer feature of Slashdot, the thing that makes it different from any other boring stale user-driven news site. So yeah, if that is broken that is a HUGE deal.

I never got far enough to notice that, frankly. I load an article and there are no comments, I am in the wrong place and I leave. I went back later, temporarily disabled my browser security to test it, and it loaded ONE apparently randomly selected comment.

I come here for the comments. Threaded, with higher rated posts broken out. Take that away and this is just another stupid boring site that no one other than on-the-clock shills and the occasional clueless joe redirected via adware will read.

Re: BETA sucks. (0)

Sepodati (746220) | about 8 months ago | (#46196347)

What in beta breaks the moderation system? Moderating itself or the display of comments?

Re: BETA sucks. (0)

Arker (91948) | about 8 months ago | (#46196401)

I am not completely sure how far it goes myself, I have not had mod points to see if that changes it, but from other comments it appears that moderation is just GONE. I can see that even after allowing them to run all their dirty scripts and clicking madly to get a few comments to show up, still no scores are shown, and no thresholds available. It does not appear to be possible to link a particular comment, to filter by score... yeah it looks like the moderation system itself has been thrown out the window.

Re: BETA sucks. (1)

Sepodati (746220) | about 8 months ago | (#46196521)

I was just playing with it on my phone. There are links to show All, Funny, Informative, etc. comments. Plus there's a gear (settings) to click on to set the view level from -1 to 5.

This actually works better than the old slider, at least on mobile.

It seems I have to type a title for comments on Be (1)

ais523 (1172701) | about 8 months ago | (#46196597)

I have mod points right now, so I just checked the interface. There's a link "Moderate" on the bottom of each post. If you click on it, it takes you to the home page, for some reason. If you have enough restraint to hover it without clicking on it, it pops up a menu of the various moderation possibilities, and you can (presumably) click on one to moderate the post.

Posts still appear to have moderation values, and there's a link you can click on to choose a threshold (and thus filter by score), but it's very very small (to the right of the "All", "Informative", etc., line, and a few pixels large).

Conclusion: All the moderation functionality does appear to still exist, but the UI is terrible.

I have also observed some missing functionality (permalink to comment, comment without specifying a title, comment as Anonymous Coward without logging out). This comment was sent from Beta for research purposes, but I think I'm going to go back to Classic for actual browsing.

Re:BETA sucks. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196507)

SLASHDOT AS YOU KNEW IT IS FINISHED.....IT IS OVER.....One look at the slashdotmedia.com webpage will confirm that for you.
If you cannot stomach the BETA redesign, if you really love the classic site layout so much, YOU MUST fork the site code and start another site such as what "AltSlashdot" are attempting to do....no if's or but's about this anymore !!!!! Personally speaking, I think it may be a good idea if Joel Spolsky (co-founder of StackOverflow) got involved.

Cut the "fuck beta" crap already (5, Insightful)

jones_supa (887896) | about 8 months ago | (#46195779)

People, shut the fuck up already. I hate the beta as much as the next guy, but we have seen enough of these "fuck beta" comments at this point. They do not change the situation right now in any meaningful way. You just make yourself look like an obsessed clown.

Re:Cut the "fuck beta" crap already (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195807)

+1. I don't mind the beta, it's ok. What's not ok is all the comments about it that makes the actual comments hard to read.

Re:Cut the "fuck beta" crap already (1)

arth1 (260657) | about 8 months ago | (#46195987)

+1. I don't mind the beta, it's ok. What's not ok is all the comments about it that makes the actual comments hard to read.

That's the whole point of the comments. Disruption is the nature of picketing, and you play your part as a useful idiot [wikipedia.org] who helps the protest by stating how disruptive it is.
Thank you for verifying the effectiveness of the protest.

Re:Cut the "fuck beta" crap already (1)

Qzukk (229616) | about 8 months ago | (#46196651)

all the comments about it that makes the actual comments hard to read.

Haha no, have some screenshots [imgur.com] . The first two are in response to a guy claiming that he can see as much in Beta as he sees in Classic, which was 100% bullshit. The third one is an example of how fucked up everything is once you get a few replies into a thread. Note that slashdot appears to be picking random fonts for everyone's posts, that's always a plus for readability. I'm sure Pi/10 horses they asked for their UX research thought it was a great idea!

Re:Cut the "fuck beta" crap already (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195903)

People, shut the fuck up already. I hate the beta as much as the next guy, but we have seen enough of these "fuck beta" comments at this point. They do not change the situation right now in any meaningful way. You just make yourself look like an obsessed clown.

If people stop complaining and start "being reasonable", they will interpret this as a sign that we will get used to beta. I actually have more respect for dice that for people like you. At least the dice people are trying to make a business work -- misguided as their action might be. But you are a fucktard. You are not willing to compromise an inch of your comfort to influence the world in the slightest way. You're a fucking sheep.

Re:Cut the "fuck beta" crap already (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about 8 months ago | (#46195969)

If people stop complaining and start "being reasonable", they will interpret this as a sign that we will get used to beta. I actually have more respect for dice that for people like you. At least the dice people are trying to make a business work -- misguided as their action might be. But you are a fucktard. You are not willing to compromise an inch of your comfort to influence the world in the slightest way. You're a fucking sheep.

Duh. I myself have expressed clearly enough my feelings towards beta. So have many others. Slashdot has clearly seen that feedback and already said "okay, okay, we got it!" If after that people still continue to rave about the beta, that's just retarded. It's clearly not about making a point across anymore but getting excited of a good riot.

Re:Cut the "fuck beta" crap already (1, Insightful)

arth1 (260657) | about 8 months ago | (#46196083)

Duh. I myself have expressed clearly enough my feelings towards beta. So have many others. Slashdot has clearly seen that feedback and already said "okay, okay, we got it!"

Slashdot has seen it, but Slashdot management has already shown their unwillingness to admit failure.

The question is whether it has bubbled up to the decision makers who can override Slashdot Media, like the advertisers, the top brass at Dice Holding and their owners, Atlantic Holding and the Quadrangle Group.
A reaction has to be elicited. The hand has to be forced. Vague bromide non-promises from the lower end staff toeing the corporate line doesn't help - if anything it tells how much upper management in Slashdot are swimming with crocodiles, and that we need to shout loud enough to get attention from higher up.

Re:Cut the "fuck beta" crap already (1)

Kremmy (793693) | about 8 months ago | (#46196103)

Nope, they didn't say "We got it", they said "We're getting rid of Classic anyway".

Re:Cut the "fuck beta" crap already (0)

richlv (778496) | about 8 months ago | (#46196119)

i don't think they get it. they talked about slowing down, and user experience research, and "going with the times".
i did not understand what this was about until i visited it. i did not think it was that terrible until i saw all of it, including comment section.

fuck beta.

Re:Cut the "fuck beta" crap already (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195917)

People, shut the fuck up already. I hate the beta as much as the next guy, but we have seen enough of these "fuck beta" comments at this point. They do not change the situation right now in any meaningful way. You just make yourself look like an obsessed clown.

Please close your account and stop coming here if other people's comments bother you so much.

Re:Cut the "fuck beta" crap already (0)

arth1 (260657) | about 8 months ago | (#46195921)

People, shut the fuck up already. I hate the beta as much as the next guy, but we have seen enough of these "fuck beta" comments at this point. They do not change the situation right now in any meaningful way. You just make yourself look like an obsessed clown.

You, good man, are evidence for the protests being useful. The whole point of them is to be disruptive, until it catches the undivided attention of those several steps higher on the decision board.

Unhappy visitors means unhappy advertisers, which means the suits' own future is in jeopardy.

You are obliging by protesting how it annoys you, helping us by voicing how disruptive it is.

Let the picketing continue until the hand is forced.
If you want the attention from upper management, you have to grab people by the balls, and twist.
Then you scrub your hands.

Re:Cut the "fuck beta" crap already (1)

richlv (778496) | about 8 months ago | (#46196105)

then they will think that it is all ok, people stopped complaining.
i opened /. from my phone in the airport today. i closed it immediately, as i got the "beta". it a fucking joke and incredibly crappy.

fuck beta. i will not visit slashdot next week. let's see what happens afterwards

Re: the "fuck beta" crap (1)

hoboroadie (1726896) | about 8 months ago | (#46196137)

I am almost tempted to option out of classic view just to see what the fuss is about; But not quite enough.

Re:Cut the "fuck beta" crap already (1)

nurb432 (527695) | about 8 months ago | (#46196165)

Good luck with that. I tried it too, and got modded down ( too ). The children now run the asylum.

Re:Cut the "fuck beta" crap already (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196341)

This sounds like my cue: FUCK BETA

Hipsters killed Slashdot. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195781)

It's pretty safe to say at this point that Slashdot will never be the same. It's clear that the community is in the process of getting destroyed, thanks to the beta site, and there's nothing we can do about it now.

So I've been reflecting over my time here at Slashdot, knowing that it will likely be coming to an end shortly. And while I've enjoyed thinking about the great times I've had here, and the fantastic people I've met, I can't help but always come back to those who truly killed Slashdot: HIPSTERS

I know, I know. Some people may blame DICE, but I think the blame goes much further. Hipster culture has enabled the shitty style of web design we see in the beta site. Hipster culture then promotes that style of "irony"-before-usability web design. Hipster culture craves the vapid lack of substance that we see with the beta site.

Slashdot is yet another victim of this rampant hipsterism that has invaded the Internet, and society at large. GNOME 3 and Windows 8 are, of course, other examples of hipsters destroying viable software projects. Firefox is in the process of being destroyed by these same forces.

The Internet was a much, much better place before hipsters came along. I don't think of this as an Eternal September type of deal, either. Hipsters don't come and go; they came onto the scene around 2006 and have stuck around, destroying one good thing after another.

I mourn for Slashdot. I mourn for GNOME. I never thought I'd ever say this, but I even mourn for Windows. I mourn for all of the websites and technologies that hipsters have helped destroy with their egos, their sense of entitlement, and their total disregard for usable, sound website and software UI design.

Different countries, different laws (1)

petes_PoV (912422) | about 8 months ago | (#46195783)

Whether you think fundraising should be unfettered (what? even for Al Queda? or in times gone past: the IRA?) or controlled, if the Finns have a law, then it's up to people in Finland - Finnish or not - to abide by it. Complaining that you don't think it should apply to you, or your cause, because it's special makes no sense: to every fundraiser: legal, illegal, moral, immoral, commercial, charitable, fraudulent or honest - their cause is "special" otherwise they wouldn't do it.

Re:Different countries, different laws (1)

kthreadd (1558445) | about 8 months ago | (#46195817)

The question is who is running the fundraising. It's Wikipedia US that runs the fundraising, all the Finns did was translate the message.

Re:Different countries, different laws (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195929)

Stupid, immoral, or tyrannical laws should (1) be exposed, (2) be criticized loudly, and (3) broken if possible.

Re:Different countries, different laws (1)

mjwalshe (1680392) | about 8 months ago | (#46196223)

PIRA I think you mean (you know the Marxist hard left ones) and shush there are American politicians who woudl be embarrassed :-)

They're worried (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195819)

It'll be used for funding /. Beta.

You know what else needs a justification? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195823)

Slashdot beta!

Re:You know what else needs a justification? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196129)

Slashdot beta!

It could be worse. Google could buy /. and keep it in beta until they eventually pull the plug on the website. Come on you were thinking the same thing.

They could not get a permit even i they wanted to (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195865)

It is not just a matter of needing permit, though, as the are strict requirements to obtain it. Namely, the permit receiver has to be a corporation or a foundation that has a strictly non-profit purpose ("yleishyödyllisyys", general benefit to society) and is registered in Finland (plus some other things). While Wikimedia Foundation probably satisfies the former requirement, it is not registered in Finland.

The reason Wikipedia is singled out despite not being a Finnish organization is because the donation page is in Finnish and is thus considered targeting Finnish people.
Money Collection Act (translation by Ministry of the Interior) [finlex.fi] . (yes, it is mostly a non-sensical out-of-date law)

This law has previously caused issues for crowdfunding campaigns, which have difficulties on satisfying the ~non-profit/"yleishyödyllisyys" requirement or the non-compensation (the donator should not get anything in return) requirement. And it of course prevents private people from e.g. having Donate buttons without violating the law.

Re:They could not get a permit even i they wanted (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195913)

Here's a short English article, though it doesn't explain much more than the summary and the above comment: Finnish police probe Wikipedia's donation requests [afterdawn.com] .

Re:They could not get a permit even i they wanted (4, Insightful)

nurb432 (527695) | about 8 months ago | (#46196149)

I'm also sure the law is used to punish entities that they don't approve of.

firsTt post (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195873)

BALANCE IS STRUCK, [samaG.com] in the

state and corporate run slashdot (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195935)

From where I see this the only way to save slashdot is to make it open source site, everyone pay, donate, give to run it and only then we will be from the corporate/state run slavery. history always repeat itself.

The Beta is tyranny! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195951)

Why does Slashdot want to keep a brother bound in chains?

FB (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195957)

Slashdot User Board Wants Justification for Dice's Beta Campaign ... and for that abomination to be permanently shelved.

FUCK BETA (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195965)

Please post this to new articles if it hasn't been posted yet. (Copy-paste the html from here [pastebin.com] so links don't get mangled!)

On February 5, 2014, Slashdot announced through a javascript popup that they are starting to "move in to" the new Slashdot Beta design. Slashdot Beta is a trend-following attempt to give Slashdot a fresh look, an approach that has led to less space for text and an abandonment of the traditional Slashdot look. Much worse than that, Slashdot Beta fundamentally breaks the classic Slashdot discussion and moderation system.

If you haven't seen Slashdot Beta already, open this [slashdot.org] in a new tab. After seeing that, click here [slashdot.org] to return to classic Slashdot.

We should boycott stories and only discuss the abomination that is Slashdot Beta until Dice abandons the project.
We should boycott slashdot entirely during the week of Feb 10 to Feb 17 as part of the wider slashcott [slashdot.org]

Moderators - only spend mod points on comments that discuss Beta
Commentors - only discuss Beta
  http://slashdot.org/recent [slashdot.org] - Vote up the Fuck Beta stories

Keep this up for a few days and we may finally get the PHBs attention.

-----=====##### LINKS #####=====-----

Discussion of Beta: http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=56395415 [slashdot.org]

Discussion of where to go if Beta goes live: http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&type=submission&id=3321441 [slashdot.org]

Alternative Slashdot: http://altslashdot.org [altslashdot.org] (thanks Okian Warrior (537106) [slashdot.org] )

fuck beta (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46195975)

FUCK BETA. This reminds me of untiy or gnome3 or digg umpeenth redesign.

For instance, why put the 'from the' quote at the bottom of each article? WHYYY?? This is changing something that doesn't need changing.

Kindly fuck off with beta - it WILL drive users away.

Ignoring ./ until this shit is sorted.

PDF file... in Finnish (1)

thue (121682) | about 8 months ago | (#46195989)

Did the summary just link to a PDF file... in Finnish? It wasn't enough that the same file was already linked from the mail article, but was judged useful enough to link from the summary? Really?

The trick to good linking is to avoid overlinking, to avoid confusing the reader. This summary fails.

Re:PDF file... in Finnish (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196281)

Learn Finnish, J.R.R Tolkien did.

Stupid waste of taxpayer money (4, Insightful)

hydrofix (1253498) | about 8 months ago | (#46196039)

As a Finnish taxpayer I am utterly frustrated by this. It seems like the work of an overly-enthusiastic police official. The Wikipedia fundraiser makes it very explicit that the funds are being collected by a non-profit organization incorporated in California, and subject only to their local laws. Although the fundraiser would be illegal in Finland as-is (Finnish law requires applying for a fundraising permit to discourage fraud), the police and the courts in Finland clearly lack jurisdiction against a U.S. non-profit. The police resources, which they claim to be very scarce due to recent cuts in public sector spending, would be much better spend investigating actual fraud and other crime, where the police and the courts actually have jurisdiction and means to prevent and stop the crime and bring the perpetrators to justice.

Re:Stupid waste of taxpayer money (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196123)

I'm finnish too, if I were running wikipedia I would immediatly shutdown wikipedia in Finland and keep it *permanently* shutdown.

You cant ask for help with funding? (1)

nurb432 (527695) | about 8 months ago | (#46196133)

You have to have *permission* to ask for help?? And you all thought the US was draconian..

Re:You cant ask for help with funding? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196449)

Someone just said that you need to do that in the states too.

It's not bad (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196277)

I't not really too bad to have some control over who can raise money for what purpose. It does help to ensure that money giving to charity will actually go where the donor thinks it will.
And it is very reasonable, a non-profit can get a permission very easily, churches can collect offertory, begging is allowed, etc.

Of course there are different views on where the limits are. But really it is a website in the Finnish language, targeted to Finland and raising money in Finnish from Finland. Is it really unreasonable for the Finnish officials to check what's going on?

Everybody understands that Wikipedia Foundation's view on what laws and regulations apply is not objective. All in all, as a legal question, it is very a difficult to determine what law should be followed with international services.

This is NOT news for nerds. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196293)

Anyone outside Finland is not affected by this.

Wikipedia will survive regardless of what the fascist Finnish government does.

I am beginning to believe Slashdot is a complete and utter waste of my time.

Fuck the editors, they are idiots. Fuck the designers, they have no sense of design. Fuck the owners for allowing this. I hope all of you starve
to death when your website dies and you cannot find work.

IANAFL (1)

PPH (736903) | about 8 months ago | (#46196323)

I Am Not A Finnish Lawyer, but doesn't some court have to produce a warrant to collect such information? What's a 'police board'?

About National Police Board of Finland (1)

kjr71 (127862) | about 8 months ago | (#46196467)

There is a short explanation in English [poliisi.fi] on the Finnish police force's web site which makes an effort to explain their organizational structure and the role of National Police Board.

Re:IANAFL (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196489)

Police board is a bad translation for Poliisihallinto. I'd translate that as "government department of police", mostly staffed by police officers and civil servants, and as opposed to the Ministry of Interior (which is the political overseer)

On warrants: This a request for comment. Basically "we've noticed this kind of thing and it looks like it's violating this or that bit of the law, so would you mind giving us some sort of explanation".

You don't have to answer; if you do, they claim they'll take your response into account when considering their next steps. The next steps in this case would be to ask the actual police to open an investigation. If the police find evidence of wrong doing, that then goes to the prosecutor who can take it to the court. At that point you finally have to start giving answers.

Beta gave my cat herpes (-1, Troll)

LoRdTAW (99712) | about 8 months ago | (#46196461)

mmmmmmmm...copy pasta...
The new site is not "movin on up". It's more like "movin on down", a step backwards. /. aint broke so dont fix it.

Dice, I am protesting the beta site. I will not follow any links from an article and I will not participate in any meaningful discussion.

You speak of a wider audience, who is this wider audience? Oh, I get it. You aren't satisfied with 3+ million registered users and now you need to attract the clueless hordes to drive up advertising revenue. /. isnt about the news, its about the comments and its simplicity. We dont need pictures or silly web2.0html5socialmediabatmobile layouts or interfaces. Just gives us the damn text summary, links and the goodness of the comment section.

Fellow /.'ers, join me in this protest. Do not post a comment related to an article or click any links. Instead, post a comment in protest of the beta design. Mods (who wish to participate in the protest): Mod up protest comments comments only. Do not mod down on-topic comments as it isn't fair to the poster.

Appropriate reply. (1)

sg_oneill (159032) | about 8 months ago | (#46196707)

Dear Finnish police board,

Jurisdiction, you goddamn scandinavian hillbillies.

Sincerely,

Jimmy Wales.

Credit card companies have a presence in Finland (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46196719)

Finnish police might be able to force the issue by telling credit card companies to block the donations.

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