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NSA Ally Spied on US Law Firm

Soulskill posted about 8 months ago | from the not-so-privileged-communications dept.

Australia 162

mendax points out a story at the NY Times about evidence that the Australian Signals Directorate notified the NSA in 2013 that it was spying on discussions between Indonesia and an American law firm. The information gathered by the Directorate included material covered by attorney-client privilege. The Times says: "Most attorney-client conversations do not get special protections under American law from N.S.A. eavesdropping. Amid growing concerns about surveillance and hacking, the American Bar Association in 2012 revised its ethics rules to explicitly require lawyers to 'make reasonable efforts' to protect confidential information from unauthorized disclosure to outsiders. ... Several newly disclosed documents provide details of the cooperation between the United States and Australia, which share facilities and highly sensitive intelligence, including efforts to break encryption and collect phone call data in Indonesia. Both nations have trade and security interests in Indonesia, where Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West have bases."

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Why is this news? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257321)

This is about Australia or didn't you catch that? Slashdot is an AMERICAN site. What about Snowden and the NSA?

Re: Why is this news? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257335)

RTFS. It was an American law firm. Don't worry, slashdot is still all about US news.

Re: Why is this news? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257573)

Call me crazy but I thought Slashdot is, or was, a technology site, and if I'm not even more insane, not just America possesses technology.

Re: Why is this news? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257883)

Nerds also like rights and like being informed when they are being violated. Also, they are spying on non-Americans even more so it's of interest to everyone.

Re: Why is this news? (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 8 months ago | (#46258009)

It's also true that not even all American Slashdotters live in the US. People move around and stuff.

Re:Why is this news? (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about 8 months ago | (#46257363)

A US law firm been spied upon by a US gov agency via Australia with the OK of someone in the US gov?
Australia just seems to the post colonial geogrpahic tap point for the US gov fishing for US attorney-client conversations.
Skilled US staff are sheltered from directly transcribing the US voices and won't raise any legal issues.

Re: Why is this news? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257381)

No, Australia spied on Indonesia, and intercepted communications from US based lawyers representing them in trade negotiations with the US. Australia shared this with the US.

Re: Why is this news? (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about 8 months ago | (#46257439)

"Australia spied on Indonesia" was just the 'laundering' or local or needed technical step.
Material from US based lawyers ended up with the US gov - no matter the help needed or sharing with/via/for/from Australia.

Re: Why is this news? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257475)

Right, because Australia doesn't have any beef with Indonesia.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/15/australia-and-indonesia-are-now-in-open-conflict-says-tanya-plibersek

Re: Why is this news? (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about 8 months ago | (#46257523)

This is a US law reform issue - what can US lawyers expect when working on cases of interest to the US gov. Australian politics is the same as always: share all with the USA.

Re: Why is this news? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257661)

Except instead of "case" you meant to say "international trade dispute" right?

http://www.law360.com/articles/467746/wto-sends-us-indonesia-clove-cigarette-row-to-arbitrator

Christ on a fucking cracker, this is the stuff every country in the world has an intelligence service FOR.

Re: Why is this news? (2)

AHuxley (892839) | about 8 months ago | (#46257721)

The USA is not just "every nation" - they have the rule of law and US lawyers know what legal protections they have when working in the USA or outside the USA wrt to their 'intelligence services"

Re: Why is this news? (1)

someone1234 (830754) | about 8 months ago | (#46258627)

"US lawyers know what legal protections they have when working in the USA or outside the USA"

Just like anyone else. Not much :D

Re:Why is this news? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257429)

This is what happens when you allow the Jewish menace to infiltrate your signals intelligence directorates. The Jews and crypto-Jews have allegiance to only one thing -- Israel. Israel is the bottom of the "rabbit-hole," where information is passed unredacted for selective dissemination to further the interests of only Israel (made to appear as if they are the interests of their allies sent out of compassionate concern).

Hitler's Mein Kampf is now Amazon's #1 most downloaded [foxnews.com] political propaganda, and for good reason -- when the wealth and rights of the Goyim are taken, those Goys know instinctively who is responsible for taking them.

-- Ethanol-fueled, because fuck beta.

Re:Why is this news? (1)

rtb61 (674572) | about 8 months ago | (#46257585)

Of course with regard to Pine Gap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P... [wikipedia.org] being a token joint facility, it's very likely everything was being done by Americans, it's just that the paperwork creates a trail for obfuscation when those Americans paid by the US government and working for the Australian government on behalf of the US government. Any actual Australian government employees were just token players, clearly in all matters beyond the shores of Australia the Australian government simply obeys the 'er' suggestions of the US government.

Re:Why is this news? (4, Informative)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 8 months ago | (#46257477)

This is about Australia or didn't you catch that? Slashdot is an AMERICAN site. What about Snowden and the NSA?

"Five Eyes" [wikipedia.org] , AC: We have a longstanding agreement with some of our select Freedom Buddies, to engage in 'intelligence sharing' and, when convenient, have one of us do what it would be illegal for another of us to do, then pass the results along, nice and squeaky clean.

I certainly couldn't tell you about the degree to which this is or isn't a wildly unequal partnership, or whether that varies by issue and location; but in this case (Australia volunteering to be oh-so-helpful to the US on a matter between the US and Indonesia), I suspect that team Australia wasn't exactly reigning the NSA in...

Re: Why is this news? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257737)

Why T.F. would it be illegal for the US to spy on Indonesia itself? They very well may have, but didn't find these particular communications themselves... who cares? Australia has MUCH bigger reasons to spy on Indonesia.

The conspiracy theories on display here are mind numbing.
Gaining an advantage in trade negotiations is a _classic_ example of what national intelligence agencies are expected to do!

Re: Why is this news? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257857)

Unless Australia was targeting and spying on the US law firm instead of Indonesia of course. Which is what the story is talking about.

Re: Why is this news? (2, Interesting)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 8 months ago | (#46257865)

My understanding is that the concern is not about these relatively trivial trade negotiations specifically(though if any of the unnamed 'customers' who found the intelligence products useful were American firms rather than government entities, that would make the US claims of not engaging in economic espionage for the benefit of individual companies rather tenuous); but about the broader question of whether US clandestine activity has the slightest regard for attorney-client relations(in this case, Indonesia had engaged a US law firm, and the Australians noted that the goodies might involve that material).

Some lawyers (particularly the ones dealing with political unlikeables, like the Gitmo remnants) have long suspected that the usual protections for attorney-client privilege were being more or less blatantly violated; but the matter has remained unresolved because, without some evidence, nobody ever has standing, the court finds the plaintiffs' concerns to be merely speculative, etc.

This case, while singularly un-sinister in terms of the matter at hand, strongly suggests that attorney-client communications are open season for the US clandestine services, if they care, which is news given the protections theoretically afforded to such(particularly in light of the revelation of DEA, and possibly other, use of 'parallel construction' to generate non-tainted 'independent' discovery of evidence uncovered by classified surveillance mechanisms that they did not wish to disclose at trial, even to the judge or prosecution, much less the defense).

Re: Why is this news? (-1, Flamebait)

cold fjord (826450) | about 8 months ago | (#46257907)

Some lawyers (particularly the ones dealing with political unlikeables, like the Gitmo remnants)....

Not every lawyer intervening on behalf of terrorists has discharged their responsibilities in a lawful manner.

Conviction of disbarred lawyer Lynne Stewart upheld for smuggling messages to jailed terrorist [nydailynews.com]

Re: Why is this news? (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 8 months ago | (#46258035)

Ah yes. The 'Special Administrative Measures' case. Do remind me about how that relates to this story?

Re: Why is this news? (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 8 months ago | (#46258315)

Hey, look, everybody! It's our old friend Fjord Fairlane!

If you're going to try to move the goalposts like that, Thin White Duke, you'll have to do better than a link to the Daily Ruse.

Re: Why is this news? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46259025)

cold fjord is a communist trying to subvert the principles the US was founded on. Fucking pinko commies.

Re: Why is this news? (3, Insightful)

sumdumass (711423) | about 8 months ago | (#46258113)

The problem here is not exactly that the US or some other country spied on Indonesia but that in whatever course of events, US citizens who also generally receive special treatment (lawyers) were spied on and this information was passed to the US government where it could have benefited. What effectively happened here is the US government gained information that it is constitutionally and as a matter of US law, barred from gathering and either did use it to their advantage or had the opportunity to do so.

You gain an enormous advantage in knowing what the opposition is doing in any matters of law. Good lawyers study scenarios in order to understand and anticipate the moves of their opposing counsel and recognize when their tactics are working. But knowing first hand could make the difference between winning and losing. That in and of itself does make spying on foreign nations worth while, it just doesn't excuse violating the US constitution and principles of law in the process of doing it. If a normal ordinary person or lawyer were to gain access to this kind of information through a third party (directly or unsolicited), it could cause them to lose their license, case or claim they are representing, or even worse- land them in jail if they used it.

Re:Why is this news? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258863)

It's actually 'Six Eyes'.

We have pre-Magna carta times now (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257367)

This is the best example which embodies the core question, of who prevails: is it the law that is above the government or is it the government above the law. This particular example of spying the law firm which was representing one side simply demonstrated that the United States has been thrown back to pre-Magna carta era. Basically, if you pose a shred of risk to the establishment and you are in court, you have no chances to privacy and a fair trial. Magna carta basically stated that even the king is not above the law. Now we no longer have the laws that are not being broken by overzealous eunuchs, who are only laughing at the rest of the population . Most interestingly, last year Supreme court rejected the supreme court case brought by the lawyers about the client-attorney confidentiality citing that such fears are "unsubstantiated". Supreme court is presided by judge John G. Roberts. This is the same judge, John G. Roberts, who is appointing FISA judges and is heavily involved "overseeing". So, he said he was not aware of spying.... What a scum seated as chief justice of the country

Re: We have pre-Magna carta times now (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257449)

What TRIAL? It was a trade dispute between Indonesia and the US.
You are seriously confusing this for something it's not.

Australia was spying on Indonesia. Wipe the surprise off your face.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/15/australia-and-indonesia-are-now-in-open-conflict-says-tanya-plibersek

This whole surveillance debate keeps reminding me of the gun control debate in the US. Every time I see N.S.A. it's like hearing Assault Rifle.

Re: We have pre-Magna carta times now (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257709)

only the NSA thing doesnt just affect you ignorant fucks in america like the gun control in america thing does. It affects the whole fucking world in one way or another, it makes your technology vendors untrustworthy and questionable to foreign sources.

It makes the world look down on you even further. It makes people from countries that once supported you think "why the fuck are we supporting them, fuck those guys"

the NSA thing scope is much greater than your tired gun control debate personally i say flood america with guns let them sort each other out at a minimum at least there will be less of you

Re: We have pre-Magna carta times now (1)

amiga3D (567632) | about 8 months ago | (#46257791)

We've been flooded with guns for over 200 years. Hell I just bought an AR-15 for 500 dollars a couple of weeks ago. Price has been coming down lately.

Re: We have pre-Magna carta times now (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258425)

Why do you need an AR-15? Terrorists? Home invaders? Gub'mint? Like killing stuff? Small dick?

Re: We have pre-Magna carta times now (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258645)

Why do you need a 3000 MHz computer?

Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West (4, Insightful)

future assassin (639396) | about 8 months ago | (#46257397)

> where Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West have bases

You know if you don't stand up and say enough of this shit its never going to stop. ATM we have a better chance of getting wipped out by a meteor then we do by some bad ass strapped to a bomb. I get almost side swiped at least once per day while driving on the highway. So what if we get attacked once in a while more people are killed by their diets and the chemicals used in food, there's the governmental outrage about these food terrorist companies that are causing serious damage to out health and economy.

On top of that terrorism is good for the economy and populations control.

Re: Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the Wes (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257503)

On top of that terrorism is good for the economy and populations control.

Apparently the moderators are pro-terror or they aren't reading the entire comments before promoting them. Did nobody else catch that?

Re:Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257549)

Terrorism is good for the economy? Dust off that PhD and open the trashcan.

Re:Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257569)

If you're so sure dead bodies improve the economy and assist population control, might I suggest you commit suicide as a form of altruism?

If not, doesn't that make you a hypocrite?

Myth: War is good for the economy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257685)

The Broken Window Fallacy.

Re:Myth: War is good for the economy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258157)

You don't seem to understand it.

Re:Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West (-1, Flamebait)

cold fjord (826450) | about 8 months ago | (#46257575)

You know if you don't stand up and say enough of this shit its never going to stop.

Let me guess, .... you don't think that argument applies to terrorism too?

I get almost side swiped at least once per day while driving on the highway.

Do you see no difference between random accidents and deliberate violent acts that will continue if not checked?

more people are killed by their diets and the chemicals used in food,

That they choose to eat. Do you want government intervention against this suicide by one plate at a time? Or do you recognize that the consequences of what you eat and how much you exercise are on you at some level? Are you really unable to ethically differentiate between deliberate assaults that can kill people immediately and a little to much sugar over 50 years of a lifetime? One cooked too much a day is the same as a truck bomb at the mall, or even more serious?

If some country were to annually bomb your city, would you want it stopped? What if they only killed and maimed fewer people than died in traffic accidents each year? By your accounting rules that should be something to ignore, right?

there's the governmental outrage about these food terrorist companies that are causing serious damage to out health and economy.

I hear that most governments have agencies devoted to stopping mass death by bad food or drugs, such as tainted hamburger. There seem to be no shortage of regulations in those cases.

If some company were inserting a poison that would kill you within days into cupcakes, don't you think that would be stopped? Why would you want to stop deliberately poisoned cupcakes but not bombs?

Since key causes of disease include the personal choices of bad diet and not enough exercise, are you advocating that the government dictate what you eat everyday, and how much exercise you get? Is that the government you want?

On top of that terrorism is good for the economy and populations control.

As long as the population it is "controlling" isn't you, right? Question - why is terrorism "good for the economy and population control" when bad food isn't? If you are ok with people being killed, isn't more better? Especially if they choose to do it? Or are you suggesting that murder is ok, but suicide over 60 years isn't?

Re:Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257617)

One question. Do you set the same standards for yourself as the ones you set for others?

Re:Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West (1)

cold fjord (826450) | about 8 months ago | (#46257939)

Who do you blame for the food that ends up on your plate and then in your mouth on a daily basis?

Re:Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257977)

You know if you don't stand up and say enough of this shit its never going to stop.

Let me guess, .... you don't think that argument applies to terrorism too?

No one with intelligence believes the transparent, logically flawed propaganda you spew.

Not all of us are going to be swayed by your "boogeyman" arguments about terrorism. 40,000
people die in the US in vehicle accidents every year. A rational person is more concerned about
safety on the road than about any terrorist "threat".

Of course highways deaths in the US don't have any bearing on the interests of multinational
corporations which have links to the US government, so the efforts of swine like you are directed
toward fomenting fear in the US populace rather than actually DOING something which
would increase the safety of the average American in the real world.

You sicken me. Scum like you have polluted humanity since time began. During
the 1930s you wore a brown shirt and marched with the Nazis. During the 1950s you
worked to rid America of the "threat of Communism" and ruined the lives of good people
in the process. During the 1960s you worked in the Stasi in the GDR, spying on everyone.
And now you are working to convince people of lies which are a thinly veiled attempt to justify
the adventures of the US in various countries around the world where the US wants to maintain
access to various natural resources.

There is no less honorable occupation than yours. You are paid to lie. And most of us here
on Slashdot laugh at you and your amateurish attempts to convince people who are your intellectual
betters of the lame bullshit you try to sell us.

I've got more respect for a janitor than I do for you.

The janitor does honorable honest work.

You don't.

.

Re:Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46259095)

You know if you don't stand up and say enough of this shit its never going to stop.

Let me guess, .... you don't think that argument applies to terrorism too?

No one with intelligence believes the transparent, logically flawed propaganda you spew.

Not all of us are going to be swayed by your "boogeyman" arguments about terrorism. 40,000
people die in the US in vehicle accidents every year. A rational person is more concerned about
safety on the road than about any terrorist "threat".

Of course highways deaths in the US don't have any bearing on the interests of multinational
corporations which have links to the US government, so the efforts of swine like you are directed
toward fomenting fear in the US populace rather than actually DOING something which
would increase the safety of the average American in the real world.

You sicken me. Scum like you have polluted humanity since time began. During
the 1930s you wore a brown shirt and marched with the Nazis. During the 1950s you
worked to rid America of the "threat of Communism" and ruined the lives of good people
in the process. During the 1960s you worked in the Stasi in the GDR, spying on everyone.
And now you are working to convince people of lies which are a thinly veiled attempt to justify
the adventures of the US in various countries around the world where the US wants to maintain
access to various natural resources.

There is no less honorable occupation than yours. You are paid to lie. And most of us here
on Slashdot laugh at you and your amateurish attempts to convince people who are your intellectual
betters of the lame bullshit you try to sell us.

I've got more respect for a janitor than I do for you.

The janitor does honorable honest work.

You don't.

.

Sadist alert. Sadist alert. *lights flashing* *beeps beeping*

Seriously, Terrorism, even if it's one bomb on a street that kills 10 people, can't be compared for the effect on the general population as statistics on road deaths. People are not machines, and not always rational in the face of terrorism acts. It's actually called terrorism for a good reason.

You sir an an anonymous poster, like me, where the cold fjord is not. It is doubtful that he is part of whatever conspiracy theory you are claiming.

In fact, you sound a fair bit crazy to me with the level of abuse and rant you're willing to dish out on the drop of a argument that you dont like.

And then, in the end, you make it all about you, and who is deserving of your respect.. How... typical.

Re:Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West (0)

cold fjord (826450) | about 8 months ago | (#46258149)

It appears that the earlier Slashdot story [slashdot.org] about trolls needs to be updated. They not only post, but moderate as well.

Re:Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West (1)

shri (17709) | about 8 months ago | (#46257645)

Cannot find the original post .. but sounds exactly like what Barry, my favorite NSA agent would say.

NSA - Smile, we know when you're not... [youtube.com]

Re:Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West (1)

amiga3D (567632) | about 8 months ago | (#46257801)

Well as long as we don't get any Nukes I guess it'll be okay. You know these NSA guys have jobs that they like. If they don't have an enemy then there is no reason for those jobs. If they didn't have any terrorists to chase down then they'd have to invent some. Fortunately for job security though there are plenty of them around in places like Indonesia to keep track of. I don't know what you expect a spy agency to do but I can't find myself surprised that they spy on people. What the hell else are they good for?

Re:Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West (1)

dkf (304284) | about 8 months ago | (#46258411)

these food terrorist companies that are causing serious damage to out health and economy

They can't be terrorists! They make donations to the Republican party.

Lawyer says what? (0, Offtopic)

nefus (952656) | about 8 months ago | (#46257419)

Am I to understand, that a lawyer is complaining about something sleazy and underhanded? Really? A lawyer? The same guys who sleaze their way to the top, then get political jobs so they can sleazy their way to the top again? They are the ones complaining about something possible being sleazy happening to them? Really? Let me get you a tissue.

Re:Lawyer says what? (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about 8 months ago | (#46257445)

Am I to understand, that a lawyer is complaining about something sleazy and underhanded? Really? A lawyer? The same guys who sleaze their way to the top, then get political jobs so they can sleazy their way to the top again? They are the ones complaining about something possible being sleazy happening to them? Really? Let me get you a tissue.

Yes, sure, shoot the messenger.
Bored much today?

Re:Lawyer says what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257555)

The lawyers write the laws. Yes, they're fucking sleazy.

Re:Lawyer says what? (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about 8 months ago | (#46257639)

Last I checked, in a democracy, the parliament/congress and (depending on the country [wikipedia.org] ) maybe judges are the ones to make laws.

Besides, we aren't discussing how moral/ethical/trusted the lawyer profession is. so your remark is offtopic in the context of "NSA violating the lawyer-client confidentiality by spying on lawyers, thus hurting the client as well".
How would you like to be on the "receiving end"?

Re:Lawyer says what? (1)

Gavagai80 (1275204) | about 8 months ago | (#46258085)

No lawmaker writes laws -- they can't, they don't have the expertise for that. Either they ask their staff of lawyers to write the law, or too often lawyers employed by special interests write the law and offer it on a platter to the lawmaker to sponsor.

Re:Lawyer says what? (2)

Etherwalk (681268) | about 8 months ago | (#46257461)

Am I to understand, that a lawyer is complaining about something sleazy and underhanded? Really? A lawyer? The same guys who sleaze their way to the top, then get political jobs so they can sleazy their way to the top again? They are the ones complaining about something possible being sleazy happening to them? Really? Let me get you a tissue.

Also the same guys and girls who are the first to defend the people from government overreach. Who serve nonprofits and NGOs and the public sector and the poor. Some lawyers are assholes. Others dedicate their lives in service.

Either way, do you really think it's a good idea to have the government listening in when you go to get legal advice about your problems with them or someone else?

Re:Lawyer says what? (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about 8 months ago | (#46257493)

US lawyers have the legal expectation not to have their work ending up on a US gov file.
Where will this recording stop? US international legal work is fair game to the US gov?
All international legal work conducted within the USA is fair game?
Some international related legal work within the USA is fair game?
Say your a US defence team working at the US state level:
At a state level lawyers can be recorded by federal officials so long as they affirm they won't directly help the state case?
A state case can be recorded by other states officials so long as they affirm they won't use the material or directly help the state?
A state case can be recorded by state officials so long as they affirm they won't use the material or directly help the case?
Very interesting times for the average US legal teams.
Your expensive US defence team becomes like an East German lawyer - sitting next to you in court ensuring all the paper work is correct.

As Legal As Breathing (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257437)

1) Legal

2) Protected

3) Available to anyone with the means, methods, techniques and wherewithal.

End of story.

Move along.

good. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257479)

Probably caught the GD lawyers lying through their teeth.

Attorney client privilege (2)

mysidia (191772) | about 8 months ago | (#46257529)

Is about material provided in confidence that cannot be used in court.

There's no reason the appropriate authorities can't listen in, if there is reasonable suspicion that the lawyer may be complicit in a future criminal act.

There have been cases where the lawyer became complicit in a later crime. case in point: Lynne Stewart. Who perhaps should have been sentenced to death for her treasonous actions.

Attorney-client privilege protects information pertaining to their case and legal advise. It doesn't protect against prosecution for conspiring with the lawyer, or using the lawyer as a channel to commit further crimes.

Re:Attorney client privilege (3, Interesting)

AHuxley (892839) | about 8 months ago | (#46257601)

This question surfaces in the US e.g.
http://www.alaskapublic.org/20... [alaskapublic.org]
Over time US lawyer and political leaders will have to work out what "appropriate [US] authorities" can subject working US lawyers to within the US or outside the USA.
In other parts of the world do US lawyers (as citizens) lose all protections working as US lawyers? If they are just tourist the full US protections return?

Re:Attorney client privilege (1)

Patent Lover (779809) | about 8 months ago | (#46257643)

Um wtf? This was a law firm involved in a trade dispute with a third world nation. This is a matter for the National Security Agency?

Re:Attorney client privilege (1)

davester666 (731373) | about 8 months ago | (#46257763)

How else can we expect to win the case? It's not like we would win on the merits...

Re:Attorney client privilege (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258633)

You have the right to a fair trial - NOT.

An attorneys strategy is sacrosanct. Say you disclose you will throw in the towel at xxxxxx dollars.
Say you will discredit their witness. Your key points can be blunted, or false witnesses primed - you loose.

At this point you do not have a fair trial - it is not the adversary system. As for lawyers being dishonest - sure, but 99.9% will stick to the rules of evidence. If the other side ..Anyway, many lawyers expect this - and create false leads for the fun of it.

Now you know the other side cheats - its open season.

Re:Attorney client privilege (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258695)

Is about material provided in confidence that cannot be used in court.

There's no reason the appropriate authorities can't listen in, if there is reasonable suspicion that the lawyer may be complicit in a future criminal act.

There have been cases where the lawyer became complicit in a later crime. case in point:
Lynne Stewart. Who perhaps should have been sentenced to death for her treasonous actions.

Attorney-client privilege protects information pertaining to their case and legal advise.
It doesn't protect against prosecution for conspiring with the lawyer, or using the lawyer as a channel to commit further crimes.

The implications are much broader than that.
From TFA:

In justifying the agency’s sweeping powers, the Obama administration often emphasizes the N.S.A.’s role in fighting terrorism and cyberattacks, but disclosures in recent months from the documents leaked by Mr. Snowden show the agency routinely spies on trade negotiations, communications of economic officials in other countries and even foreign corporations.

American intelligence officials do not deny that they collect economic information from overseas, but argue that they do not engage in industrial espionage by sharing that information with American businesses. China, for example, is often accused of stealing business secrets from Western corporations and passing them to Chinese corporations.

The N.S.A. trade document — headlined “SUSLOC (Special US Liaison Office Canberra) Facilitates Sensitive DSD Reporting on Trade Talks”— does not say which “interested US customers” besides the N.S.A. might have received intelligence on the trade dispute.

Other documents obtained from Mr. Snowden reveal that the N.S.A. shares reports from its surveillance widely among civilian agencies. A 2004 N.S.A. document, for example, describes how the agency’s intelligence gathering was critical to the Agriculture Department in international trade negotiations.

“The U.S.D.A. is involved in trade operations to protect and secure a large segment of the U.S. economy,” that document states. Top agency officials “often rely on SIGINT” — short for the signals intelligence that the N.S.A. eavesdropping collects — “to support their negotiations.”

Thanks, Edward Snowden (4, Insightful)

PopeRatzo (965947) | about 8 months ago | (#46257571)

Every time you read one of these stories, and are (hopefully) a little bit outraged at how the NSA has dropped every pretense of complying with our Constitution, and has embraced the most despicable aspects of tyrannical rule without any notion of "national defense", you should remember that without the heroic acts of a single young man, and the tireless efforts of a shamefully small handful of journalists and publishers, we would either be ignorant of these monstrous acts or vulnerable to charges of paranoia.

We now have proof, and government doesn't even deign to make false denials. We have government officials calling for the assassination of Edward Snowden and some of the journalists with whom he entrusted these documents. We have everything we need to make a decision about whether we really consent to be governed in this way.

There has never been a perfect hero outside of myth. But there are necessary heroes, and Snowden is one of those.

Re:Thanks, Edward Snowden (-1, Troll)

cold fjord (826450) | about 8 months ago | (#46257781)

I won't think less of you if you happen to recant should a successful 9/11 scale attack strike your hometown after the growing number of leaked NSA document articles teaches al Qaida how to successfully avoid US surveillance. If you tell the American people there really isn't any way to keep al Qaida from finding out, let alone China or ......

Re:Thanks, Edward Snowden (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258007)

And the NSA helped prevent 9/11... what the fuck has all the NSA spying achieved? the billions wasted and more has done nothing to make us safer. Besides.. OUr own stupid ignorant foreign policies is what creates the incentives for poeple to harm us.. we should be focusing on changing that instead of spying on people and bankrupting the country

Re:Thanks, Edward Snowden (-1, Flamebait)

cold fjord (826450) | about 8 months ago | (#46258099)

If you think that US foreign policy has anything to do with al Qaida's existence then you are wholly ignorant of their motivation. [spiegel.de]

What has NSA spying achieved? Here are some hints:

NSA helped foil terror plot in Belgium, documents, officials say [cnn.com]

In a New History of NSA, Its Spies' Successes Are [Redacted] [wsj.com]

Re:Thanks For Nothing, Edward Snowden (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258769)

They haven't been able to do another 9/11 style attack since. And their organization has been decimated. It would be nice if Snowden and the media didn't tell them how to avoid detection and prevent the NSA from having the resources to catch bad people. There are still plenty of them out there, and most don't come out and say it ahead of time.

The only bad one is the climate negotiation spying so far, but that is the fault of diplomats not knowing proper opsec.

The only thing I blame the NSA for is trusting Microsoft to secure these documents and for letting a rat like this in.

Re:Thanks, Edward Snowden (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258027)

I won't think less of you if you happen to recant should a successful 9/11 scale attack strike your hometown after the growing number of leaked NSA document articles teaches al Qaida how to successfully avoid US surveillance. If you tell the American people there really isn't any way to keep al Qaida from finding out, let alone China or ......

Your attempts to scare us with the same old bullshit about "a successful 9/11 scale attack" are far from
convincing. Why ? Because it's been over 12 years since 9/11 and anyone who was motivated
has had more than sufficient time to cook up a plan, yet nothing even remotely close to a threat which could
kill thousands of US citizens has happened.

It's been obvious for some time now that the so-called terrorists are a bunch of amateurs.
Their obvious failure to do anything serious in the US during the last 12 years points to their
incompetence, and the NSA / CIA et al cannot take credit for that, as much as they might like to do so.

Re:Thanks, Edward Snowden (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258055)

Dude, Snowden has only been teaching terrorists how to avoid the NSA for a little over 6 months now. Give it time.

Re:Thanks, Edward Snowden (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258273)

Their obvious failure to do anything serious in the US during the last 12 years points to their incompetence, and the NSA / CIA et al cannot take credit for that, as much as they might like to do so.

So the NSA/CIA had nothing to do with how all the top leadership positions were drone-striked out of existence?

Re:Thanks, Edward Snowden (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258091)

You are such a fucking pathetic sheep retard apologist. Seriously, grow a fucking brain and set of balls. Baaaaaaaaaa!!!!

Re:Thanks, Edward Snowden (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258169)

How about we take yours? You don't seem to be using either your brain or your "balls." They are kind of wasted on ewe.

Re:Thanks, Edward Snowden (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258821)

Are you on debate team?

Re:Thanks, Edward Snowden (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 8 months ago | (#46258431)

Enemies everywhere, I see.

You must either take a lot of sleeping pills or watch a lot of late-night TV.

Re:Thanks, Edward Snowden (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258507)

... teaches al Qaida ...

So what did Al Qaeda learn when a fertilizer factory in Texas exploded, killing 15 people? That Americans shouldn't be taught how to make fertilizer? That willful attacks of a community event, like the Boston marathon, deserve more fame, sorry, news reports, than murderous incompetence?

... isn't any way to keep al Qaida from finding out ...

What nonsense. Schools changed science classes so children wouldn't discover that common substances can be mixed to make explosives. The US even promotes Christianity, so people won't worry with all that dangerous science which leads to illicit drugs and stuff.

Re:Thanks, Edward Snowden (1)

amiga3D (567632) | about 8 months ago | (#46257815)

I have to ask. As pertains to this particular instance, where is the violation of Constitutional law?

Re:Thanks, Edward Snowden (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258995)

"dropped every pretense of complying with our Constitution"

Fortunately, the Constitution doesn't give you or other commenters the authority to make that decision. The consitution has given the Judicial branch the authority to make that decision. The Judicial branch has ruled it consitutional. Additionally, the Consitution gives Congress the authority to override the Judicial branch if it disagrees: Constitutional amendments. Congress has chosen not to and other than a select few, most of Congress agrees that nothing that has been reported on recently is unconstitutional. I know it's hard for most Slashdotters to hear this and I usually get marked -1 troll when I speak contrary to the Slashdot group think on this subject, but it's the truth. I learned about this process in grade school and most of you should have, too.

Re:Thanks, Edward Snowden (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | about 8 months ago | (#46259093)

The consitution has given the Judicial branch the authority to make that decision.

That's not really so. The Judicial branch has taken it for itself.

Where in the Constitution does it say that judges can decide that rights protected under the Constitution can be removed? In fact, it says the opposite.

Master keys (1)

manu0601 (2221348) | about 8 months ago | (#46257637)

From TFA:

The Australians have obtained nearly 1.8 million encrypted master keys, which are used to protect private communications, from the Telkomsel mobile telephone network in Indonesia

Anyone know what this is about? What are that master keys, and what protocol is using them?

Re:Master keys (2)

AHuxley (892839) | about 8 months ago | (#46257697)

Depends on the country and what cell phone or "internet" packet systems they bought into, upgraded to.
Think of it as Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act access to your countries telco/isp/billing, credit cards, banking, educational, medical, criminal courts, local gov via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C... [wikipedia.org] been open to Australia and a few other nations :)
Its the special crypto keys handed over to a countries top law enforcement on buying a national/domestic telco networks for full transparency, decrypting and real time tracking.
Its not any "protocol" its geo location, plain text over all (diverse) products and services, key logging - everything law enforcement and domestic spy agencies need for very complex realtime cases - now in the hands of a few outside governments over many years to enjoy and share all.
Every few years this kind of product use makes the news in some small way:
SISMI-Telecom scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S... [wikipedia.org]
Greek wiretapping case 2004–05
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G... [wikipedia.org] –05
Sadly most govs and their own top crypto experts do not seem to understand the software of the networks they use.
i.e. turnkey delivery with a secure buildings and lots of ways in for other nations.

That Palin Thing says: (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257673)

"How's that 'hopey-changey' stuff workin' out for ya?"

:: winks ::

:: snaps gum ::

War on American Citizens (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257723)

It's bad enough the Attorney General sanctioned the DoD's NSA to violate the 4th Amendment rights of 300 million Americans to assist in the "potential" investigations his civilian DoJ might need to conduct should they commit a crime. Now they admit to violating law and snooping on the attorneys of those persecuted? Where's this generations Lee Harvey Oswald when he is actually needed?

Re:War on American Citizens (1)

amiga3D (567632) | about 8 months ago | (#46257841)

What the fuck is wrong with you? It's a system. This system has been in place for decades. J. Edgar Hoover did shit that makes these guys look like liberal pussies when he was running the FBI. Killing one person or even hundreds wouldn't change the system. Hell, they think they're doing the right thing and I'd say most of the public probably thinks so too.

Re:War on American Citizens (2)

sumdumass (711423) | about 8 months ago | (#46258037)

Where's this generations Lee Harvey Oswald when he is actually needed?

He's hiding in the corner afraid of making Joe Biden the 45th president.

Seriously, do you think killing a man is really called for? All it would do is make the government demand more constitutional violations in the name of BHO. Remember Obama would become the rallying cry of every American when they carted you non-conformists off to the gulags.. errr I mean gitmo.

What is needed is for congress to grow a pair and pass a law restricting the NSA. And then they need to actually ignore the claims of racism and impeach the bastards who violate it. There is a difference between monitoring foreigners in foreign lands and US citizens in any land. But just in case someone wants to whine that bush did it, we can impeach Bush too. Although rarely is it ever legit to do something you know is wrong or illegal or unconstitutional simply because someone else did it too so I don't really buy into the but so and so did it on something this freaking obvious.

these guys spy on you and your attorney in court (1)

strstr (539330) | about 8 months ago | (#46257749)

NSA and Signals Intelligence has the ability to spy on clients and attorneys in jail, in their cells, in court, and in the attorneys office. Signals Intel has the ability to do a variety of imaing techniques, inluding extracting and monitoring thought via Remote Neural Monitoring and TAMI, which is built into satellites and radar. It has many many miles range, and they can also see and hear you through the walls. Juries can also be spied on, along with the judges, and the DA and judges and court officers are usually in on it.

Signals intel does electron imaging from remote locations. They have mind reading and mind altering radar, and atomic grade long range laser microphones, thermal and radar imaging of objects/particles/people, and also human and electronics electrical activity monitoring, tracking, and decoding.

Details at http://www.oregonstatehospital... [oregonstatehospital.net]

No information, human memory, or communcation can be kept private from these guys. Set ups, black operations, spy games, mind control on the public and deception is all around us. You cannot infiltrate their game because they know whos after them, and I am telling you they are able to track and monitor this shit well.

Reality is just as scary as fantasy (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 8 months ago | (#46257833)

They have mind reading and mind altering radar

In a country where it's officially believed that the polygraph is Wonder Woman's lasso of truth it shouldn't amaze me so much that people are taking this shit seriously.
I suggest strstr that you consider reality instead because it's scary enough without going past the wall of voodoo. Real stuff on the public record is able to listen in at range in a variety of situations - for example Theremin's passive bug found in a US Embassy in the 1950's (something about it is on wikipedia somewhere).
Also you should keep in mind the Snowden situation - all those toys don't help much if toy soldiers are using them. Incompetence of the trackers is keeping you from being tracked everywhere.

Re:Reality is just as scary as fantasy (1)

strstr (539330) | about 8 months ago | (#46257989)

I am considering reality. Mind reading radar has been around for ages, since 1976.. and it is backed up by a 1974 patent by a radar systems defense contractor, Robert Malech, who invented it. This is confirmed by Department of Defense / CIA / US DOJ whistleblower Dr. Robert Duncan who also invented many of the systems in use (space / radar weapons).

On top of that, the page I linked to had a video at the top of NSA whistleblower Russell Tice, who also claims he targeted law firms, journalists, generals, senators, judges and other individuals while he worked at the NSA with space capability. Most of these technologies are also automated and these agents are highly trained and skilled. There is no issue of competence, or pulling off electronic warfare tricks...

Society itself is nothing but a mind control prison any more, and we have no real privacy or rights.

Re:Reality is just as scary as fantasy (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 8 months ago | (#46258001)

With respect, we don't even have mind reading medical equipment yet so how the hell are the cartoon superspies going to get it? Aliens?

Re:these guys spy on you and your attorney in cour (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258053)

No information, human memory, or communcation can be kept private from these guys. Set ups, black operations, spy games, mind control on the public and deception is all around us. You cannot infiltrate their game because they know whos after them, and I am telling you they are able to track and monitor this shit well.

The good news is that a prefrontal lobotomy can and will bring peace
to your troubled mind. We're ready to give you one. Just look out your window,
that's us in the van with no windows.

                                                                                                        your friends

Nepotism stops it from being a reign of terror (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 8 months ago | (#46258883)

You cannot infiltrate their game because they know whos after them, and I am telling you they are able to track and monitor this shit well.

After the Snowden leak has shown that instead of professionals it's full of politically well connected toy soldier horse judges that couldn't find their arse with an atlas you still believe that?

here's what I think (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46257759)

Fuck beta.

Re:here's what I think (1)

amiga3D (567632) | about 8 months ago | (#46257849)

On Socialist Slashdot beta fucks you!

Re:here's what I think (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258311)

I guess we know what you are doing next valentines day then.

Far too much secrecy there's been, just for the lo (1)

pigsycyberbully (3450203) | about 8 months ago | (#46257783)

If they are spying on "everybody" then naturally they have not left anybody out? They just better hurry up and release a story about spying on homos. The NSA doesn't want to be called homophobes and have men in make-up demonstrating outside the NSA building do they? Hey! cannot hold the victim status if they are left out of this! Oh and don't forget Jesse Jackson, what ever you do NSA. Thank you Philip. http://child-porn-hacking-and-... [child-porn...mail.co.uk]

Ok that makes sense.. (1)

dubist (2893961) | about 8 months ago | (#46258073)

Which kind of explains why senior Australian and American politicians have been in Indonesia recently..

Hate to be the Australian Ambassador to Indonesia at the moment..

Rumour has it that the Indonesians regularly send encrypted birthday greetings for Australian operatives so we will probably just end up with another round of mock outrage and contrition from both sides and then it will be back to the cricket..

I think that its a shame Shirley Temple Black is dead because now there is no one to lead a global round of "Good ship lollypop."

A critical question (2)

MarkvW (1037596) | about 8 months ago | (#46258141)

Did the NSA rearrange bits on the law firm's cable-connected computers?

That would be a key constitutional trip line.

I need to make an NSA friend (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258243)

The stock tips those guys must have, I mean there's no disclosure of what they monitored so proving insider trading is not only difficult, it would require national security secrecy if there were any sort of trail to expose. The NSA stated their goal was to capture and decrypt all business traffic including stock trades. I guess I should just go apply for a job.

Partner (2)

bl968 (190792) | about 8 months ago | (#46258337)

The correct word is partner. The reason they have the five eyes )Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and the United States) is so that they can work their ways around laws in one country by having another country do the spying then sharing the information back to the country that wanted the data to begin with. It's all about getting around the laws and as the article said "The bulletin notes only that the counsel’s office “provided clear guidance” and that the Australian agency “has been able to continue to cover the talks, providing highly useful intelligence for interested US customers.”"

That means that the information was provided to American intelligence agencies and that they are violating the clear prohibition against spying on Americans.

Re:Partner (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46258759)

Its worse. I a panicked response to 9/11 the US created the "Department of Homeland Security" agency, which is _designed_ to pool that information and is without the limiting mandates of local or federal agencies. The access to and integration of all that pooled data is quite frightening:

Fortunately for US civil rights, the Department of Homeland Security has been unable to find its own as with both hands glued into its pockets, and the bureaucratic stonewalling and petty rivalries have helped impede them from doing anything useful to *anyone*. They couldn't find bathrooms in their own buildings if they didn't have goose-stepping little interns carrying buckets from their chairs and handing them copies of the Constitution to wipe their asses with.

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Tag is bullshit (1)

CuteSteveJobs (1343851) | about 8 months ago | (#46258829)

> ... , where Islamic terrorist groups that threaten the West have bases." Yes, and regularly negotiate trade agreements with these terrorists, in this case for buying shrimps (the Buba Gump kind) as was the case for the spying here.
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