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Indian Hustle: How Fraudsters Prey On Would-be US Tech Workers

timothy posted about 7 months ago | from the lowest-of-the-low dept.

Crime 124

New submitter angel115 points out this article on the widespread fraud committed in India against many thousands of those seeking visas to work in the U.S. Many Indian techies rely on the services of visa brokers (or people who claim to be), and end up burned by the transaction. From the article: "Some are lucky enough to get a visa — only to find that the promised job in the US doesn’t materialize. Then the visa holders are forced to return to India after spending thousands of dollars just surviving. ... No official figures are available for the number of frauds in India, but an unclassified document released by Wikileaks showed that in 2009, US consular officials cited H-1B scams as one of the two most common fraud categories in India." Another interesting detail: As part of a U.S. government investigation, "Officers investigated 150 companies in the city and discovered that 77 percent 'turned out to be fraudulent or highly suspect.' ... Officials uncovered a scheme where Hyderabadis were claiming to work for made-up companies in Pune so the Mumbai consulate would be less suspicious about their applications. 'The Hyderabadis claimed that they had opened shell companies in Bangalore because "everyone knows Hyderabad has fraud and Bangalore is reputable,” according to the internal communiqué [later published by Wikileaks]."

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Why the exodus ? (5, Insightful)

invictusvoyd (3546069) | about 7 months ago | (#46321999)

Can't They just live and work in India? . There is ample opportunity in India waiting to be tapped. The very first time I saw a US visa applicants queue at one embassy , I decided never to be a part of this . No wonder the Americans are fed up of all these fellas . And whats worse is they form the Indian stereotype in the US . Many who have made the H1 B or whatever seem to believe that they have achieved some "higher ground" by working in the US . I can't get it . I value fellas who write good shell scripts more than these " yum bee yea's " .

Re:Why the exodus ? (4, Insightful)

Viol8 (599362) | about 7 months ago | (#46322047)

Never underestimate the number of naive people in the world who think the grass is always greener elsewhere. Sometimes it is, usually - unless you come from a slum in some no hope country - it isn't. Its just the same old sh1t but with a different view out the window.

Re:Why the exodus ? (3, Insightful)

khallow (566160) | about 7 months ago | (#46322079)

Keep in mind that most of these people probably have friends or relatives who can tell them what it's like. My understanding is that most immigrants don't immigrate without a fair idea of what they'll see on the other side and some help to ease the transition.

Re:Why the exodus ? (1)

invictusvoyd (3546069) | about 7 months ago | (#46322117)

What you're saying is right, but I dont understand why it has become the defacto ambition of indian folks in general . Students, techies to-be housewifes .. Imagine if everyone in the US wanted to come to India .. whould'nt it be strange?

Re:Why the exodus ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322259)

If everyone in America moved to India, India would be a much better place and everyone would choose a name of Bob or Sally.

Re:Why the exodus ? (5, Interesting)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | about 7 months ago | (#46322427)

It is not true. India has a billion people and there will always be a rung or starta of the society that would think moving to America would better their lives. But the top crust of Indian elites, they are not enamored by America anymore. The top grads from IITs, IIMs they don't come here. Look at the US Graduate schools. It used to be full of students from top Indian schools. Not anymore. I have not seen any resume from an IIT grad in the last 10 years. The last IIT grad I managed to recruit was in 2000.

There are still great reasons to immigrate to USA from India. Less corruption, great clean water and air, reliable power supply etc. But for a young man from a top school contemplating US grad schools/jobs, the biggest stumbling block is the lack of domestic help. Indian girls refuse to marry and move to America because they have to do all the house work. They might be willing to cook and may be load the dishwasher. But cleaning toilets is considered the beneath their dignity. It is nearly impossible now a days to persuade Indian women without IT career prospects to immigrate to USA. Indian women with career in IT get to marry the top honchos in India and get to live a life of luxury.

I thank my lucky stars for immigrating in the early 1990s for my wonderful wife.

Re:Why the exodus ? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46323283)

Indian girls refuse to marry and move to America because they have to do all the house work.

... should be:

Middle-class Indian women -- who are expected by most Indian men to be responsible for all the housework and in India have the benefit of servants -- refuse to marry and move to America because they are still expected to be responsible for all the house work but have no one to delegate it to.

One would think that at least some marriages would could make it work, especially those where the bride comes from poverty. But, same class and caste and creed and economic and educational status are the building blocks upon which most arranged Indian marriages are built.

-- An Indian Immigrant

Re:Why the exodus ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46323733)

This is all a good thing then. I certainly dont want anyone moving here who thinks they are too good/shouldnt have to clean up after themselves. These tend to be the same type of people who treat domestic help like medieval servantry.

Its bad enough that that kind of disgusting attitude is increasingly prevalent among Americans, we dont need to import it from other countries. Here in the Bay Area I've known a few Indians with this ridiculous attitude and its always a pleasure to laugh and make fun of them right to their face.

Re:Why the exodus ? (0)

thePig (964303) | about 7 months ago | (#46324177)

I do see a lot of bigoted comments in the whole chain.
Do understand that all the things mentioned here are part and parcel of developing countries where concept of equality etc takes time to manifest.
Since we are going the anecdotal way, amongst my friend circle it is quite different. None of us bar one stayed in America and not because manual work is beneath them. Everyone wants to stay in India now, due to myraid reasons ranging from bigger opportunities, parents a,d relations etc.
Similar to Japan being made,fun of and then later respected, I believe similar path will follow for all the developing countries china, India and Nigeria included.
Please consider that just 3 years back this same forum used to make fun of code quality etc, which nowadays I don't see. Consider first that humans are equal other than,in the opportunity that they get, then all these things wil be secondary.

Re:Why the exodus ? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46324669)

There was no bigotry involved. I didnt say all Indians are pretentious idiots who think they shouldnt have to clean up after themselves, I said I've known a few who were. Most Indians I know are not like that at all, which makes the pretentious ones I have known all the more noteworthy.

My post was in the context of the GP saying how the top crust Indian elites were no longer coming to the US as they couldnt get away with their elitism here as much as they can there. I was just saying this is a Good Thing.

Re:Why the exodus ? (-1, Troll)

HornWumpus (783565) | about 7 months ago | (#46325809)

It's not racist to hate brahmen. It's just rational. They are all worthless air thieves who think they are too good to actually work (not just labor, they think they are too good to work).

Never hire brahmen. To get them to reveal themselves just tell them about how upper crusty your family is.

Lower caste Indians are often good at what they do. Hire them.

Brahmen are a millstone around the neck of the Indian economy. Don't make them a millstone around the neck of your company.

Re:Why the exodus ? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46323173)

My understanding is that most immigrants don't immigrate without a fair idea of what they'll see on the other side and some help to ease the transition.

Most immigration throughout history, especially America's, is more about escaping from a shitty situation, not because people know what they'll see on the other side.

The history of the US is full of immigrants escaping from a shittier situation back home. The early colonists were full of people persecuted for their religion. Later ones came due to economics, war, escaping from communism, etc.

When you're escaping from a hellhole, you don't have to know a whole lot about the place you're going to. All you really needed to know was "it beats the hellhole I live in now".

And this is why you don't see much people emigrating and leaving the US today. For all the complaints you hear, the US isn't such a hellhole that people would pack their bags and leave (for both the rich and poor, say what you want about businesses who moved their operations to China, most of the owners and shareholders themselves haven't moved.)

Re:Why the exodus ? (1)

nukenerd (172703) | about 7 months ago | (#46325777)

AC @ 15:47 wrote :-

When you're escaping from a hellhole, you don't have to know a whole lot about the place you're going to. All you really needed to know was "it beats the hellhole I live in now".

No, you do not need to know it. You just need to assume it.

Re:Why the exodus ? (1)

Lumpy (12016) | about 7 months ago | (#46322127)

Actually the grass IS greener here in the USA. The USA has huge sections of untouched land that is some of the greenest grass around.

Sadly you cant afford to own any of it, because the rich have intentionally suppressed wages way down so that tech employees could never hope to afford to own land.

Re:Why the exodus ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46324487)

Land is comparatively cheap in the US. The problem is that all of the good land in the good markets is taken. Pine forest in the hills is cheap in the south (developers can't do anything with it, and is far the fuck away from any public roads. dirt roads done by the property owners is where it is at.

Re:Why the exodus ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46324883)

Actually the grass IS greener here in the USA. The USA has huge sections of untouched land that is some of the greenest grass around.

Sadly you cant afford to own any of it, because the rich have intentionally suppressed wages way down so that tech employees could never hope to afford to own land.

Not really. I am an EE and have 18 acres of 1/2 wooded, 1/2 field, with creek, 1/2 hour from +2M metro area. That's just the land. My house is in the burbs.

Re:Why the exodus ? (1)

HornWumpus (783565) | about 7 months ago | (#46325833)

Can't afford to own land? WTF? Geek squad does not make you a tech employee.

Re:Why the exodus ? (1, Flamebait)

DrSkwid (118965) | about 7 months ago | (#46322263)

India is a slum. People shit on the sidewalk in Mumbai. There is heartbreaking poverty everywhere you look. And stink and pollution.

If you had a chance to leave on a plane to the US you'd seen in the movies, you'd be off like a shot.

Shit, even if you'd only watched Jersey Shore and Real Wives of Portland you'd be off like a shot.

Shit, even if you'd only watched Trailer Park Boys you'd be off like a short (yes I know it's Canadian).

Re:Why the exodus ? (0, Troll)

Viol8 (599362) | about 7 months ago | (#46322627)

India also has a space program, a huge IT industry and a middle class that is larger than the population of the US. India could sort a lot of its problems out but it can't be bothered - it would sooner spend the money on pointless rockets and nuclear weapons. The country is a disgrace.

..country is a disgrace?? Bah! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46323363)

are you going to stop doing Y just because its taking longer to sort X?? Both are disconnected events. Infact Y here being the space program brings the country prestige and showcases its prowess as a technological giant. This has nothing to do with the problems it faces. And these problems cannot be solved by stopping any such research. Or you would have had a country with lots of problems and not even a space program for that matter. btw the ISRO sent satellites discovered that there is water on the moon.

Re:..country is a disgrace?? Bah! (1)

Viol8 (599362) | about 7 months ago | (#46323767)

"And these problems cannot be solved by stopping any such research. Or you would have had a country with lots of problems and not even a space program for that matter"

ITYF all western countries that have space programs have a basic healthy standard of living amongst their population. They don' t have tens of millions of people without clean water and infested with disease.

Re:..country is a disgrace?? Bah! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46325555)

I repeat... as if not pursuing a space program actually helps all the other initiatives. The thinking is fallacious at best thats all.

Having a satellite up there on your own means you can use your own communications satellite instead of using some other countries. These things also have implications in defence and security and not just for respect.

Building of tech inhouse also helps us have some amount of research in place. Its very easy to simply import anything and then blame a foreign country for controlling almost all your businesses and land and thus indirectly your lives. In case you didn't realise, technology transfer is always a key issue with all developing countries because they do not want to lose the edge! Its essential that India has some amount of R&D in place as a system. If you build the system now, you can easily leverage it later when you actually have money.

What India is building really is a system so that it may leverage it for future use.

Re:Why the exodus ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46325699)

Noone is saying things are not bad in India but it is not that rosy is the US either. Go to San Jose downtown near the Museum of arts and you will find shit on the sidewalk because of the homeless living near the museum.

Re:Why the exodus ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322841)

Here in Minnesota the grass is buried under three feet of snow. So yeah, the grass IS definitely greener elsewhere.

Re:Why the exodus ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322963)

Oho . Trust me. Your grass green is violent green. Mine is a kind of yellowish one. I guess the pissing dogs are the cause.

Re:Why the exodus ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46324585)

The US is exporting movies etc n fact stereotyping the "lifestyle" to the rest to the world. It is not unexpected for people out there to think that life in the US is easy and everyone has a 2 garage home and bimbo for wife.

Re:Why the exodus ? (1)

nukenerd (172703) | about 7 months ago | (#46325877)

AC @ 17:28 wrote :-

The US is exporting movies .. stereotyping the "lifestyle" to the rest to the world. It is not unexpected for people out there to think that life in the US is easy and everyone has a 2 garage home and bimbo for wife.

I also see in US movies gratuitous violence, racial problems and people blowing each other's heads off with guns. Gran Torino for example, and that's set in a middle class area. I'll just stick to the movies, thanks.

Re:Why the exodus ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46326067)

> Gran Torino for example, and that's set in a middle class area.

Sorry to break it to you, but Gran Torino was set in a lower-class neighborhood. You may or may not have noticed the street gangs. Street gangs are not a feature of a middle-class neighborhood.

Everybody thinks they are "middle class". I am also sorry to break it to you that, evidently, you are lower-class.

Re:Why the exodus ? (1)

nukenerd (172703) | about 7 months ago | (#46328655)

Gran Torino was set in a lower-class neighborhood. You may or may not have noticed the street gangs. Street gangs are not a feature of a middle-class neighborhood.

Everybody thinks they are "middle class". I am also sorry to break it to you that, evidently, you are lower-class.

Well, I am always willing to learn more about US culture, and if that, a district of detached houses with lawns and garages, was a lower class area the US is wealthier than I thought. Admittedly, it did look a bit run down, but I would have judged a lower class area as one with old, run-down terraced houses divided into apartments, and I've seen those in US movies too. The fact that street gangs were in an apparently middle class district was my point.

As for my being lower class, well, LoL, that's a very rash assumption about someone you do not know! I have been called a lot of things, but that's a new one. Keep then coming! No surprise though that most (not all) people think they are middle class because most people are middle class, in the UK anyway [bbc.co.uk] ..

Re:Why the exodus ? (5, Interesting)

maple_shaft (1046302) | about 7 months ago | (#46322233)

Can't They just live and work in India?

Why in the world would they want to do that if given a choice? Sure they have a growing middle class and an Indian software developer lives pretty well considering he is living in India. He/she can afford to live in a reasonably furnished apartment without rats or vermin, afford to feed their family and eat well, and even achieve the pinnacle of middle class success in India, possession of your very own A/C unit to keep you cool in the sweltering summers (as long as the power actually works).

The one thing they will always live with however is the gross overpopulation, the crumbling infrastructure and the graft fraud and bribery that becomes a part of just daily living. A friend of mine from India told me to imagine your day, you get stopped by a cop for a minor infraction, pay a bribe or go to jail. You wait 8 hours in line to get your drivers license renewed unless you bribe the guy at the door to be queued ahead. Somebody can break into your home and steal what little you have and the cops just don't care.

He told me Americans are spoiled not because we are wealthy, but because we don't see Justice as the luxury it really is. Until you live in an overcrowded country that has 400 million starving people in the streets and has rampant corruption and a generally low value on human life, then you will never truly understand how valuable Justice in a society really is. He is slightly amused watching our countries political battles and scandals.

I appreciated his perspective and where he came from in life, and I wouldn't begrudge anybody who would want to come live here if they didn't care for that life anymore.

Re:Why the exodus ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46325781)

The overpopulation is not a problem per se if you can educate the people to be productive. It is actually a positive in that local companies have a large captive market. If India were to restrict trade and prevent emigration in a generation most problems would be solved. India can't do it as it needs US support to ward off the threat of China and Pakistan hence it needs to let US MNCs operate in India and allow Indian brains to be sucked up by US to run its tech industry. The price for American prosperity is third world including Indian poverty.

Re:Why the exodus ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322251)

Then you dont realise the massive gap in quality of life
India: fresh out off college you will earn 40k INR/month max unless you are the lucky 1000 or so engineers who get into Google\MSFT\Amazon\etc
That will get you some savings and an OK appt on rent
A similar person would earn $4k/month in US atleast, which would get him a Studio appt of his own with facilities like 24x7 power, water, airconditioning, access to clean and comfortable public transport which is not massively overcrowded, or even a nice car like a Civic in the 1st or 2nd year of his career (which is considered a luxury car in India) without the petrol bills eating up half the salary
At any level barring perhaps VP and above this comparison holds true
Compare the life of a sweeper, or a Google engineer in India and US. The difference in quality of life is clearly visible

Re:Why the exodus ? (3, Informative)

RabidReindeer (2625839) | about 7 months ago | (#46322585)

Can't They just live and work in India?

The whole reason why India became such a hot supply of labor is that when a refrigerator is a luxury purchase and electricity is so hit-and-miss that companies build their own private power plants, the cost of living is a LOT lower. You could buy lunch for an entire week for USD $1. Try that at a New Jersey McDonalds. Even today, after 10+ years of Indian professionals pushing salaries up, they still don't get paid anywhere near what westerners do.

So, given a choice between getting well-paid by Indian standards to work in India, or an opportunity to get what amounts to a fantastic salary in the US and other western countries as an H1-B or equivalent - even if they are underpaid by US standards, a lot of them come to the US with the idea of building up an enormous retirement fund, then taking it home to India where it will buy much more than it does in the USA.

Often, however, they end up getting seduced by American-style living. I know quite a few with big fancy air-conditioned houses with modern appliances and an SUV or 2 in the drive. Their main concession is that they generally don't crank the A/C down to 65 like some of my native-born neighbors do.

you are misinformed (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46323403)

you cant buy lunch for $1 even in India for a week. Maybe for two days max ... i.e. if you forego dinner and breakfast.

India (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46324483)

Clearly you have not been to India.

Let me put it this way. It is a shithole with a few exotic palaces dotted around and some fancy buildings owned by the Indian billionaires who believe charity should begin at their own home.

The place is corrupt - everything is done with bribes and every Indian worker is simultaneously brown nosing his boss at the same time he is trying to stab him in the back.

And they bring these fine habits to the US. (And they learned the wonderful trick if you oppose them, why you're a racist.)

Re:Why the exodus ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46325027)

What an incredibly ignorant and disgusting comment.

Re:Why the exodus ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46325677)

India needs to get indoor plumbing and infrastructure. Filthiest place I have ever seen in my life.

Re:Why the exodus ? (1)

TheSync (5291) | about 7 months ago | (#46326545)

Can't They just live and work in India?

Why can't we all be able to live and work wherever we want?

Remove all immigration controls. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322003)

The left don't believe in artificial borders, because that's just exploiting third world workers for the benefit of the West.

The right don't believe in artificial borders, because it implies state control over movement.

Who is it that supports immigration controls, exactly?

I do (2, Interesting)

Chrisq (894406) | about 7 months ago | (#46322739)

Who is it that supports immigration controls, exactly?

If you have no immigration controls then you will essentially have a situation where people will move to other countries speculatively. This will put a vast strain on resources like education, and so on. You also need to decide how you are going to handle out-of-work benefits, and historically courts have often differed in decisions on entitlement from what the government intended (how do you deal with a family with one foreign born parent - and are courts going to decide that the same must apply to an extended family with one Western born child?). Even if you make a draconian decision that no benefits can go to any family with a foreign-born member then if you have no restrictions you could end up with shanty-towns on the edge of every major city, increased crime rates (most people will do something rather than starve if the minimum wage job that would be a fortune at home doesn't come arround.

Then there are terrorists. Granted three are many peaceful people in India; Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, Christians, and Agnostics, but they also have a large number of Muslim terrorists. You can be sure they'd see an open door policy as an invitation to attack the west.

Re:Remove all immigration controls. (1, Insightful)

ShanghaiBill (739463) | about 7 months ago | (#46323237)

The left don't believe in artificial borders

The left built the Berlin Wall.

Flamebait (1)

DeterministicGuy (2921459) | about 7 months ago | (#46322007)

Cue jokes about call centre workers and other Indian tech. stereotypes.

Re:Flamebait (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322275)

Hello,
I am calling from Windows, and we have found a problem on your computer.

Re:Flamebait (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46326753)

Windows 8 set them back a bit though. "My name is Ted. Just to confirm I am looking at your PC. Click the Start button-" "I don't have a Start button..." "Oh. Ok sir, I am getting you then to right-click the left corner of your screen." "Right... left click the right corner... nothing happened." "Sir... please... ahh mai chod, I'm Raj and go fuck yourself with your Windows 8." -click

Re:Flamebait (1)

ikhider (2837593) | about 7 months ago | (#46328787)

Thank you, come again.

We could stop hiring these people and hire skilled (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322009)

But instead the US companies use these indentured servants to keep skilled labor wages down.

There is nothing more fun than wasting hours every day explaining basic concepts to our h1-b teams who can barely communicate in English. The customers certainly love the cryptic messaging in the software.

Re:We could stop hiring these people and hire skil (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322039)

There is nothing more fun than wasting hours every day explaining basic concepts to our h1-b teams who can barely communicate in English.

So don't explain them. Let them figure it out. Agree amongst yourselves not to prop up gross incompetence. You don't have to be blatant about it: just explain at the same level you'd explain to someone of average competence, and let it be their responsibility to figure out the rest.

This is the sort of thing where even the most primitive organization of labor would act in your favor. "Why isn't this done?" "That guy over there." "He says you didn't explain things." [response of everyone] "Yes, we did. He is not competent and doesn't understand a thing."

Re:We could stop hiring these people and hire skil (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46324943)

Yeah that doesn't work, where I'm at they are in bed with the off shore companies and it's been made very clear their failure is our failure. It rolls down hill, the only thing you can do is leave and hope you don't run in to the same situation again.

Arn't techies supposed to be smart? (1)

Viol8 (599362) | about 7 months ago | (#46322025)

To me this just seems like a good way to weed out the idiots.

Re:Arn't techies supposed to be smart? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322139)

Even techies get scammed. Especially smart techies are very vulnerable to confidence scams. Arogance is the key weakness.

Re:Arn't techies supposed to be smart? (1)

rmdingler (1955220) | about 7 months ago | (#46322281)

Unfortunately, it's a good way to weed out the honest, trusting, and naive.

People tend to look at others through eyes that are a microcosm of their belief set(s).

Despite popular wisdom to the contrary, it is more difficult to con a con than a rube.

Green card indentured servitude (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322045)

The misery doesn't end if they actually get into the US with a job. Once they apply for a green card US law requires they work for the same company for 7 years. The contracting companies use this to their advantage. I've seen friends being delayed given documents needed to prove how long they worked. I don't know all the details of what they go through, but I've heard enough to not want to hire from certain companies again.

Re:Green card indentured servitude (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46324357)

In Canada, we think of these immigrants as somewhat less than real people. Companies are allowed to pay them substantially below the wages a "real" Canadian would make at the same job.

Companies have bribed/talked the Government of Canada to allow them to hire "temporary foreign workers" for jobs too difficult, dirty, or hazardous for Canadian people. The Royal Bank of Canada hires temporary foreign workers because they said they could not find Canadians to hire because of workplace condidtions in their banks. The truth is more like the CEO wants extra money.

F***in' beta (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322055)

it would be really generous of the brilliant and thoughtful folks at Slashdot to organise it so when you click on the "You may prefer to switch to Slashdot Classic for now" link in f***in' beta you landed on the same f***in' post.

worth the risk? (2, Interesting)

richman555 (675100) | about 7 months ago | (#46322083)

Poor Indian technical workers... yet there are many Americans without jobs. Taking a risk coming to the US for a job? I guess they don't realize they will work in US I.T. sweatshops.

Re:worth the risk? (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322115)

Yes, because living in India and living in the USA are exactly the same experience.

may chariots of fire rain hell onto us unchosens (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322093)

book of debt & death, chapter & verse http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nazi%20zion%20book%20of%20death&sm=3 WMD on credit cabalists just one product really?

Moving jobs to foreign country = treason (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322119)

Why is moving jobs to foreign country not treated as treason?
For example, if Germany or USA company closes the local factory and moves it so some dump in Asia, it is as bad as treason. Usually it's even worst than that.

Re:Moving jobs to foreign country = treason (2)

arjun.jrao (1976036) | about 7 months ago | (#46322249)

Jobs are moved to another country because of economic incentives. That is the essence of capitalism ... to seek efficiency through a free market. How can you mix up the profit motive with some mishmash of patriotism and insecurity ?

Re:Moving jobs to foreign country = treason (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322291)

I did not know that sociopathic tendencies, like destroying lives, have become the new standard in capitalism. But you must be right. this is not "capitalism", what we have now days, this is new and improved "global capitalism".

People should really try to evolve beyond "but, but... this is economic incentives" bull shit excuse and start looking at the bigger picture.

Re:Moving jobs to foreign country = treason (1)

HornWumpus (783565) | about 7 months ago | (#46325965)

If you want to 'own' a job, start a business. Otherwise shut the fuck up.

If losing a job destroys your life, you were unprepared for life.

The sociopaths here are the entitled workers, who think they are set for life, regardless of business reality.

Re:Moving jobs to foreign country = treason (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46326243)

Dear Hippie,

The purpose of corporations is not to provide people with jobs. The purpose of corporations is not even to produce goods and services. Those are happy side effects surrounding (but not all) corporations.

The sole purpose of corporations is to make a profit. Sorry they did not teach you that in government school.

HTH

Re:Moving jobs to foreign country = treason (1)

donscarletti (569232) | about 7 months ago | (#46324213)

Why is moving jobs to foreign country not treated as treason?

You may be interested to know that treason is the only crime defined in the United States Constitution.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

It is defined in Germany as a violent attempt against the order of the Federal Republic of Germany (for high treason), or betraying a state secret for the purposes of harming the state (for treason).

India is not the United States' or Germany's enemy, even serving in India's army and killing people on India's behest is not treason, as long as India is not at a state of war (declared or undeclared) with that person's own country and the acts are not against that person's own countries or its allies.

As far as German law is concerned, unless the intent is explicitly to cause harm to the German state, one cannot be convicted of treason. As far as American law is concerned, unless it is helping America's enemies or directly waging war against America, it cannot be treason.

So, that's basically why it's not treason.

Re:Moving jobs to foreign country = treason (1)

colinrichardday (768814) | about 7 months ago | (#46328109)

In the US, the Constitution says that treason consists of waging war against the US, or aiding and abetting its enemies. How does moving a factory apply?

Boo Fu*king Hoo (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322129)

Yes, am sounding insensitive to folks in India. However, am sitting on the other side, where my company has moved all Sys Admin and Database Admin overseas. Posting Anon to keep my resume hopes up. When the f*ck are we going to wake up and take care of our country? Folks collectively spend billions getting the degrees and experience, only to get jobs at Walmart; where they can't even pay their student loans. To top it, we continue to support FB, Google, M$ and others who continue to push for underpaid H1V1 visas...

Re:Boo Fu*king Hoo (3, Insightful)

interkin3tic (1469267) | about 7 months ago | (#46322711)

Sounds to me like the bad guys are the people deciding to outsource your job, not the people getting ripped off here. Not even the people ripping them off, though they are bad too.

It sounds like you're saying "I have problems too, so why should I care about someone else's problems?" Which is fair, no one is asking you to donate money to help H1V1 scam victims, but "boo fucking hoo" is pointless, and misdirected.

Re:Boo Fu*king Hoo (3, Insightful)

schlachter (862210) | about 7 months ago | (#46322937)

Victims all around, but the perpetrators are your fellow American capitalists...not Indians or anyone else trying to find a job to support their family.

Re:Boo Fu*king Hoo (1)

gnupun (752725) | about 7 months ago | (#46323055)

Exactly, the govt needs to have a quota, like H1B, that limits the number of jobs that can be outsourced to a different country. The business folks are always going to outsource everything as long it increases profit by 2x to 5x.

Re:Boo Fu*king Hoo (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46324449)

So why is America allowed to export unlimited number of Computers, Software and Chemicals to India? Maybe the Indian govt should have a quota. Only 65000 licenses of Microsoft Windows to be sold in India every year. Everybody else has to use software written by Indians at an India Based Indian company. Why is it that westerners want free trade when they are exporting and destroying the local industry but when those locals then try to export services it becomes about patriotism.

Re:Boo Fu*king Hoo (2)

HornWumpus (783565) | about 7 months ago | (#46325991)

India long had the most restrictive import regulations of any large nation.

Look were it got them. India is a poster child for the failure of protectionism.

Re:Boo Fu*king Hoo (1)

schlachter (862210) | about 7 months ago | (#46328023)

That would be stupid. Business owners should be free to hire who they like. Likewise, workers should be free to unionize and consumers should be free to boycott in response.

Re:Boo Fu*king Hoo (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46323063)

Ever seen any H1Bs (from India or anywhere else) whose skills don't come close to matching what their placement agencies say that they have? Plenty of OJT out there for cheap imported labor, but not domestic.

Re:Boo Fu*king Hoo (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46324135)

Until it becomes not worth the effort to screw-over the American worker, companies will continue destroying the job market, as long at it's profitable.
Why do they do this ?
Not because there's a need for skilled workers, we have plenty (but not at a cheap enough cost).
They do this shit because companies can claim a deduction for:
1. The costs associated with moving jobs overseas.
2. Deduction for moving a plant overseas.
3. Defer paying taxes on income earned overseas.
There are more rewards for the bastards.
Law must be changed to fix the job market, make it an expense to move jobs out-of-country and make it a tax saving to hire citizens.

Re:Boo Fu*king Hoo (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46325523)

Most IT people don't start with automating their position to free up time for studying while at work, which enables them to automate other things or build other systems or manage other projects or complete other tasks. The vast majority of IT Pro's view automating their position a way to lose a job and putting in the bare minimum as the norm.

That problem is endemic.

If you're an all-star with certs, a degree or two, and years of experience, you're getting all sorts of calls from all sorts of people but the majority of the jobs pay crap and managers are just looking for a deal as they go lean.

I, of course, am going to continue going to school and working on certs. Because after the crash we're about to have, those skills will be nowhere to be found and I will be able to either name my price or name with whom I work. I like what I do, and it turns out what I do is damn hard to find good skills for.

Re:Boo Fu*king Hoo (1)

HornWumpus (783565) | about 7 months ago | (#46326017)

'All Stars' eschew certs. Certs are for mediocretins.

Re:Boo Fu*king Hoo (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46325751)

When the f*ck are we going to wake up and take care of our country? Folks collectively spend billions getting the degrees and experience, only to get jobs at Walmart; where they can't even pay their student loans.

We are taking care of our own; we're helping them finish their education. All of those things they were supposed to actually learn in university, such as the rapid modernization of other countries, the waning of American Exceptionalism, the failing of mercantilism...they are learning them now, at Walmart U. That's more valuable than any amount of coddling protectionism.

Yeah, padding out your electives with fluff, just so you could slack a little more in the CS classes, that may not have been the swiftest move. A few Econ, Foreign Policy, and History courses might have helped you see the bigger picture. Nobody owes you a damn thing just because you won the parent lottery and were born on a specific patch of land. Quit whining.

Re:Boo Fu*king Hoo (1)

colinrichardday (768814) | about 7 months ago | (#46328133)

However, am sitting on the other side, where my company has moved all Sys Admin and Database Admin overseas.

Who swaps out a bad hard drive?

Re:Boo Fu*king Hoo (1)

dodobh (65811) | about 7 months ago | (#46328809)

A hardware technician. You don't need that many of those.

Or you virtualise as much as possible, and then you need even fewer hands on site.

Also, beta sucks old shrivelled Indian balls. Took (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322131)

That is all.

if they only knew (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322135)

How slow internet is in the US.... slower than their trains....

like dialup only slower (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322217)

gremlins http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=internet%20throttling%20shills%20&sm=3

India, sort of like Mexico (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322151)

Only fewer paved roads, more polluted waters in India. And only the source of chemicals, not the drugs, that comes out of Mexico. Which is worse is the only question here.

China too (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322269)

I lived in China for a while and similar scams were common there. I remember having to explain to a friend there, a trained nurse, why paying around $1500 up front for a company that said they would get her a Canadian visa and a (huge by Chinese standards) salary around $1200 a month. It was not an immigration visa that would let her stay long term, but a domestic servant visa for a live-in job caring for an Alzheimer's patient.

The Canadian embassy had warnings on their web site that 'visa consultants' were unnecessary since you could do everything yourself, and in particular that anyone claiming to have "connections" to make a visa more likely or quicker was lying.

Re:China too (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322301)

There are lots of quite eager visa-seekers. As a late-50s Canadian male in China -- without a large income and not remarkably handsome even as a young man -- I got several marriage proposals from attractive women in their thirties. One lass proposed within minutes of meeting me and several offered to pay me.

Re:China too (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46324391)

I agree. China's H1N1 visas are just as terrible. :P

Even Those That Aren't Seem Pretty Bad (1)

Greyfox (87712) | about 7 months ago | (#46322603)

I've had several Indian contractors in my little work area lately who seem to constantly be on the phone about problems with their paychecks or tax forms. One guy didn't get paid for several weeks because "the guy who signs the checks is out of the country on business." A couple other ones had their first few paychecks held (Which seems to be a common practice but illegal at least under this state's law.) I suggested they bring their complaints up with the state labor board, but they don't appear to be willing to do that.

Re:Even Those That Aren't Seem Pretty Bad (1)

petermgreen (876956) | about 7 months ago | (#46326981)

but they don't appear to be willing to do that.

AIUI the problem is that the US has H1B (and possiblly other visas but H1B seems to be the main one) visas that mean the immigrant can't easilly change jobs and if they lose their job they will most likely be sent home. This puts the employer in a much stronger position than they would be if they were employing an american citizen or permanent resident.

If the immigrant puts up with the shit for a sufficint number of years then AIUI the can generally become a permanent resident (and eventually if they wish a citizen).

Fraudsters are being defrauded, so what? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322765)

Correct me if I misunderstood something here but these people are trying to commit visa fraud themselves. They are paying a company for the purpose of getting a visa just so they can get into the country to look for a job with other companies in the US and transfer their visa. They know that these are shell companies that will not actually employ them.

lol (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46324151)

Similar to a drug user getting ripped off by a drug dealer...

Re:Fraudsters are being defrauded, so what? (2)

gnasher719 (869701) | about 7 months ago | (#46324629)

Correct me if I misunderstood something here but these people are trying to commit visa fraud themselves. They are paying a company for the purpose of getting a visa just so they can get into the country to look for a job with other companies in the US and transfer their visa. They know that these are shell companies that will not actually employ them.

How would they have any idea that visa fraud would be involved? There is bureaucracy, which might be impossible to penetrate for someone who doesn't have knowledge how this bureaucracy works. You hire someone who knows best what forms to fill out, where to send them and so on. It's as much fraud as hiring a lawyer to defend yourself in court, or hiring a CV writer to create a much better CV than you could.

3 words (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322769)

"Culture of Lying"

Have a frank discussion with anybody who deals with offshoring to Indian companies, and that phrase always comes up.

Just goes to show you.... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46322803)

....you can't trust an Indian for ANYTHING.

Nothing new (1)

cheap.computer (1036494) | about 7 months ago | (#46324905)

This is not just visas to the West, but also to the Middle east, and Asia pacific, visa agencies and bodyshops have been scamming people forever. There were movies made mocking how these tricksters operate. Back in the Y2K days when tech workers from India were brought to the US in large numbers there was a practice of falsifying University degrees. These Scams Scoundrels and suckers have always been around.

Request for Feedback from actual Indians (1)

Xeleema (453073) | about 7 months ago | (#46324921)

I would think a thread like this on an IT-oriented site would drum up quite a bit of feedback from Indians that have migrated to America (under any circumstances). Though I share the same sentiments as many U.S.-based posters have (hate cleaning-up/debugging horrible code, dealing with people who hide their lack of comprehension behind a Yes-Man veil, etc), I'm curious how "the other half lives".

What drives someone in India to come to the US, rather than improving their situation at home?

What challenges did they have getting here?

How have they secured their stay?

I mean, I can surmise with the best of /. about the how's and why's -- But I think this thread is a great opportunity to "hear it from the horses mouth".

Re:Request for Feedback from actual Indians (1)

debug22 (3549893) | about 7 months ago | (#46326571)

Thanks @Xeleema for requesting comments from an Indian immigrant to the US. I believe if you read carefully there are different versions of this perspective near the top of the comments thread, but here goes, anyway:

What drives someone in India to come to the US, rather than improving their situation at home?

Different reasons depending on the route one takes. For those like me that took the educational route, perhaps it was disillusionment with things back home coupled with having a dream and a getting new opportunity to start things fresh and try something that wasn't possible back home. As India has developed, and as there is awareness of the "cons" of US life too, those like me are in the minority.

What challenges did they have getting here?

As an evil fox character in my daughter's favorite TV show would say, "Oh man!". I'd sum up the challenges for legal immigration as a potent mix of unreasonable visa quotas and dealing with a slow, needlessly complex system (that almost makes illegal immigration look good by comparison). As an example of the former, in some cases people have graduated from US schools with a job offer which they couldn't accept because the visas ran out on the very first day and the resulting "lottery" didn't favor their application. Why would today's youth choose to suffer this when other developed countries (eg. Canada) will give you a green card out of college even without a job offer...
As an example of the grinding wheels of the system, I'm a PhD scientist doing very specialized (not run of the mill IT) work, and my application took 6 years to clear, including many frustrating delays and redundant requests for fingerprints or documentary evidence already received by them. It seems USCIS is accountable to no one in this matter (especially not their legal immigrant customers who keep shelling out hundreds of dollars for employment and travel privileges while waiting for cards to arrive year after year). Again, why would... as above.

How have they secured their stay?

With a green card and a career, I suppose... but I'll contort the question to answer a related one: why don't I go back, now that things are better. I believe we might some day, but for now what we gain by being here still outweighs (somewhat) the high cost structure for homeowners/parents, losing out on being near parents, and other reasons for being in India. For many many of my friends who've been trained here but have different constraints/expectations than ours, the answer has been clear cut, and they have indeed returned to India.

Re:Request for Feedback from actual Indians (1)

Xeleema (453073) | about 7 months ago | (#46327445)

debug22,
Thank you for the response. It really sheds some light on the situation and I appreciate the first-hand experience you shared. Now I'm really curious about Canada - If it's so easy to get a green card, why aren't IT companies setting up support shops north of the U.S.A instead of directly importing people?

This constant back-and-forth with various agencies trying to hash-out visas here in the U.S. has always struck me as large waste of time and money for everyone involved...

Re:Request for Feedback from actual Indians (1)

AvitarX (172628) | about 7 months ago | (#46328107)

The thing that surprises me, is the difficulty of getting permanant status after completing graduate school.

My friend has been a productive member of the US working class, and depending on how things with applications, has a 1 in 3 chance of staying here. It makes no sense to me, because it seems like the opposite effect of a brain drain, people come here, get educated, then are sent home.

Job? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46325047)

Maybe they can get a job with "Windows Tech Support" calling to tell me my computer's infected...

you kno (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46325643)

These sore loser Indians need to quit whining about somebody stealing their cheese!!!!

AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHA

Stay Home you pieces of shit (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46326517)

Stay out of the U.S., serves you right for being taken advantage of...American STEM workers want you OUT Raja, GO HOME VISA!!!!

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