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New Jersey Auto Dealers Don't Want to Face Tesla

timothy posted about 8 months ago | from the what-we-need-is-more-regulation dept.

Businesses 342

cartechboy writes "It feels like this story is becoming repetitive: X state is trying to ban Tesla stores, or the ability for an automaker to sell directly to a consumer. Either way, it's all aimed at Tesla. Now it's New Jersey's turn as a hearing today could end up banning Tesla stores in the state. Naturally Tesla's displeased with this and is crying foul. A rule change that is expected to be approved today would require all new-car dealers to provide a franchise agreement in order to receive a license from the state. Obviously Tesla (the manufacturer) can't provide a franchise agreement to itself (the distributor). The proposed rule would also require dealers to maintain a 1,000 square foot facility, the ability to show two cars, and service customer cars on site. Tesla doesn't meet that last requirement at any of its galleries, and most of the Tesla stores are located in shopping malls which mean they are smaller than 1,000 square feet. Tesla's arguing the New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission is overstepping its bounds. Will Tesla be able to defeat this new rule in New Jersey as it has overcome issues in many other states?" (Also covered by the Wall Street Journal.)

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Feds... (4, Insightful)

msauve (701917) | about 8 months ago | (#46458813)

Here's a perfect example of why the federal Constitution has an interstate commerce clause. States are interfering with interstate commerce to protect local businesses. Time for some federal legislation to shut this down.

Re:Feds... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46458905)

Nope time for the Feds to shut tesla down for breaking state law.

Re:Feds... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459065)

TIL it's the job of the Federal government to enforce state law.

Re:Feds... (1)

Qzukk (229616) | about 8 months ago | (#46459977)

TIL that it's illegal to do something that the state hasn't made illegal yet.

Re:Feds... (0)

tomhath (637240) | about 8 months ago | (#46458943)

Tesla wants to open a store in New Jersey to sell cars in New Jersey. That's not interstate commerce, no reason for the Feds to get involved.

Re:Feds... (4, Informative)

mosb1000 (710161) | about 8 months ago | (#46459013)

A company based in CA selling cars in NJ most certainly is interstate commerce.

Re:Feds... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459037)

Oh look another moron that doesn't understand what in there state commerce clause means.

Re:Feds... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459093)

Oh look another moron that doesn't understand what in there state commerce clause means.

Oh look another moron that doesn't understand the difference between their and there.

Re:Feds... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459113)

You beat me to it :(

Re:Feds... (3, Insightful)

Spazmania (174582) | about 8 months ago | (#46459391)

I'm pretty sure he meant to say "the interstate" rather than "in their state." What on earth did you think he meant to say?

Re:Feds... (4, Insightful)

mosb1000 (710161) | about 8 months ago | (#46459145)

Interstate commerce means any work involving or related to the movement of persons or things across state lines. If you make a car in CA and take it to NJ, that's clearly interstate commerce, and the Federal Government is granted constitutional authority to regulate it. Maybe you are confused about what it means?

Re:Feds... (1)

geekoid (135745) | about 8 months ago | (#46459167)

Is that what happens? Or do you order one online that is made in CA?

Re:Feds... (1)

cheesybagel (670288) | about 8 months ago | (#46459359)

AFAIK Tesla has show rooms that have an online kiosk that allows you to order the car online yourself. They don't do traditional auto dealer style business.

Re:Feds... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459505)

No, interstate commerce means you can't grow corn on your own field to feed your own cattle on the same farm in the same state/city/zip. After that court decision not sure why anyone could possibly argue anything isn't part of the interstate commerce according to the feds.

Re:Feds... (5, Informative)

daninaustin (985354) | about 8 months ago | (#46459629)

You overstate it. It was originally meant to prevent states from taxing commerce moving through their state. Of course the courts have rewritten it out of whole cloth to mean that the feds can regulate anything they want, but in this case there is no way they will intervene. Car dealers are powerful in most states and it's perfectly rational (but bad) that they manipulate the govt into propping up their businesses. Maybe Tesla has deep enough pockets to fight it in the legislatures, but i doubt it.

Re: Feds... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46460117)

I think if they wanted something so specific they would have written it that way. But if they'd done that a state could make a loophole by requiring the foreign seller to sell through a local dealer who pays taxes to the state.

Re:Feds... (2)

Megane (129182) | about 8 months ago | (#46459627)

Oh look, another idiot who knows his grammar as well as he knows the law.

For instance, Swift v. United States [wikipedia.org]

Even though the slaughterhouse supposedly only dealt with intrastate matters, the butchering of meat was merely a "station" along the way between cow and meat. Thus as it was part of the greater meat industry that was between the several states Congress can regulate it.

Seriously, if they keep pulling this shit enough until it eventually hits the Supreme Court, it could possibly be the end of the whole cushy dealer thing.

Re:Feds... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46460001)

Huh. And here I thought the "growing it in your backyard and smoking it yourself is interstate trade" nonsense came from the New Deal and farmers having to burn crops they planned to eat. That's what all the conservatives kept telling me, anyway.

Re:Feds... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459081)

TIL mosb1000 is an expert in the matters of applicable NJ, CA, and Federal interstate law.

Re:Feds... (2)

whoever57 (658626) | about 8 months ago | (#46459389)

Tesla wants to open a store in New Jersey to sell cars in New Jersey. That's not interstate commerce, no reason for the Feds to get involved.

I go to my local pharmacy to fill a prescription -- it is treated as interstate commerce for the purposes of legislation. How is it different?

Yes. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459175)

Car dealerships are an anachronism.Internet is the rule now.

In this day and age, having commissioned sales people, whose sole purpose is to argue against everything one has read on the web or in Consumer Reports in order to get you to buy shit, is complete horseshit. I go in with the attitude of salespeople are liars until proven otherwise.

I am NEVER wrong.

Ever.

It's the closest thing to being a God there is.

Same goes for ALL retail sales people. (Hear that Best Buy or Microcenter!)

See, retail sales is all slash and burn - they'll never see you again and vice versa.: there is no reason to develop a "relationship" with you. So, they'll fuck you and the law is on their side.

Re:Yes. (2)

Berkyjay (1225604) | about 8 months ago | (#46459297)

As someone who once sold cars, TVs, and stereos I wholeheartedly agree. It's taken me years to wash the stink off.

Re:Yes. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459603)

What do you get when you (ex-PC salesman) teaches the younger brother (Used car salesman), all of his tricks, tips, and methods on reading people?

Someone you never, ever, under any circumstances, want to buy a car from.

That act alone has consigned me to hell. There is nothing I can do to balance that ledger, except invent time travel and kill Hitler. Maybe.

Many members of Congress own car dealerships (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459185)

Many members of Congress own car dealerships or are closely associated with those who do.

Being protected monopolies, they are very profitable.

Surely you've noticed that all the products of technology get cheaper every year except cars?

This is perfect example of double standard. (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459611)

The left is up in arms when their darling must face the same rules that every other automaker obeyed for decades.

Re:This is perfect example of double standard. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459863)

And the right only believe in free market until a business pushing a leftie concept comes along, and then government regulation is suddenly mandated by God.

Re:This is perfect example of double standard. (1)

mbkennel (97636) | about 8 months ago | (#46459913)


The other automakers didn't like it either but they have too much invested and too much to lose.

Tesla is the only new major automaker in decades anyway, and therefore the only one without existing dealer relationships which would be at risk.

WHO CARES ABOUT THOSE COURTS (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46458827)

the court is out of order!!
the court cant stop them from selling there cars.
tesla just sell the cars and tell the judge in new jersey to fcuk himself!~
judge is fucking criminal

This is just getting stupid. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46458831)

The cars already cost so much that they won't impact anyones existing business.

Re:This is just getting stupid. (2)

gnupun (752725) | about 8 months ago | (#46458947)

... unless other automakers follow suit.

Re:This is just getting stupid. (1)

UnderCoverPenguin (1001627) | about 8 months ago | (#46459341)

Stupid, yes.

How much of an obstacle?

The most difficult requirement is the franchise agreement. Maybe if Tesla split itself in to 2 companies, one for manufacturing, the other for retail and service operations, they could satisfy this requirement.

A 1000 sq ft "show room" in a mall is possible. Every Apple store I have been in has had at least 1000 sq ft of sales floor, plus back room space.

On site servicing could be possible depending on how strict the definition of "on site" is. Example, when Circuit City still had stores, the one near me had a store in the mall with an installation facility in a corner of the mall's parking lot. ("Anchor stores" like Sears often have attached auto service facilities, but I seriously doubt any mall would allow Tesla to do that.)

This isn't corruption. (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46458849)

The Government just wants what is best for the consumer.

Don't get it (5, Insightful)

Tanktalus (794810) | about 8 months ago | (#46458853)

The right wing should be opposed on free-market principles. The left wing should be opposed on environmental grounds. So which politicians should be in favour of this regulation again?

Re:Don't get it (4, Insightful)

Valdrax (32670) | about 8 months ago | (#46458867)

The right wing should be opposed on free-market principles. The left wing should be opposed on environmental grounds. So which politicians should be in favour of this regulation again?

The pragmatists & cynics who need local, wealthy donors to bankroll their campaigns.

Re:Don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459489)

All the while, riding on the ghost promise that free-market capitalism is the only future!

There isn't a word that exists for the kind if echo chamber these people live in!

"Network" movie: the world is a business (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459851)

The right wing should be opposed on free-market principles. The left wing should be opposed on environmental grounds. So which politicians should be in favour of this regulation again?

The pragmatists & cynics who need local, wealthy donors to bankroll their campaigns.

From the movie:

There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM, and ITT, and AT&T. And Dupont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those are the nations of the world today [in 1976]. What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state? Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments just like we do. We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations inextricably determined by the immutable by-laws of business. The world is a business Mr. Beale. It has been since man climbed out of the slime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI5hrcwU7Dk&t=2m15s

Re:Don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46458909)

The politicians who take "donations" from the car dealers. Corruption knows no party lines.

Re:Don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46458913)

The ones getting contributions from the auto industry and unions. Hence why this has a good chance of passing in democratically controlled New Jersey.

Re:Don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46458925)

The ones that are already paid for, of course.

Re:Don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46458945)

Auto dealers are most certainly right-wing.

The "free market" is a bullshit term that means "Laws are bad when they hurt my ability to make money but good when they help it. Except we pretend that those helpful laws aren't laws and call we them by other special euphamisims to shelter my frail ideology"

Re:Don't get it (5, Insightful)

gandhi_2 (1108023) | about 8 months ago | (#46459005)

Free market principles? How about plain old freedom?

How about the enlightenment principle that government can't simply make up whatever laws it wants. There is no such thing as liberty if a local dictator can tell you what lightbulb to make or how to sell cars.

Why not force the regular car dealers to also bundle horse buggy whips with all car purchases to protect the horse-buggy-whip establishment.

This is another uber ridesharing story with different players. North Korea only has one dictator at a time. In the US we have thousands, spread across 4+ levels of government.

Re:Don't get it (0)

geekoid (135745) | about 8 months ago | (#46459197)

"How about the enlightenment principle that government can't simply make up whatever laws it wants"
NO one says that? I mean, the Constitution expressly allows it.

" There is no such thing as liberty if a local dictator can tell you what lightbulb to make or how to sell cars."
That's not true at all.

"Why not force the regular car dealers to also bundle horse buggy whips with all car purchases to protect the horse-buggy-whip establishment."
hahaha, that would be funny..but they would do it is it means maintaining there control. They would be cheap, and you would only need to keep a couple in inventory.

Dictator, you keep using that word..

Re:Don't get it (1)

Anubis IV (1279820) | about 8 months ago | (#46459097)

So which politicians should be in favour of this regulation again?

The ones in favor of requiring that drivers move towards the left lane when passing roadside maintenance vehicles. From one of the links:

However, instead of putting the language on the Senate floor as a standalone bill, the ban was inserted as an amendment to Senate Bill 137--an unrelated bill that required Ohio drivers to move to the left while passing roadside maintenance vehicles.

Sleazy politics at play. Either they're vilified for hampering Tesla or they're vilified for being against safety measures. These shouldn't be an either/or, but the auto dealerships have made it one.

Re:Don't get it (4, Insightful)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | about 8 months ago | (#46459133)

Common mistake. You have been used to the "truth in labeling law" "truth in advertising law" etc for so long, you have assumed it applies to everyone. Sorry my dear friend, the politicians are exempted from those laws. They can label themselves "free market loving libertarian right wingers" or "mother earth worshiping tree hugging beer-can-recycling post-cosumer-waste-reconsuming environment loving left wingers". But there is absolutely no guarantee the politician you find under those labels are truly what the label says.

Stop with the hyperbole (1)

rsborg (111459) | about 8 months ago | (#46459593)

Common mistake. You have been used to the "truth in labeling law" "truth in advertising law" etc for so long, you have assumed it applies to everyone. Sorry my dear friend, the politicians are exempted from those laws. They can label themselves "free market loving libertarian right wingers" or "mother earth worshiping tree hugging beer-can-recycling post-cosumer-waste-reconsuming environment loving left wingers". But there is absolutely no guarantee the politician you find under those labels are truly what the label says.

That's because you're making two straw men and knocking them down. I guarantee you that folks like Alan Greyson on the left and Rand Paul on the right would support Tesla here and they're not the most extreme on either end - however, we're talking about super-corrupt NJ who still think bridgegate-Christie is a decent governor. You know, the one that gave out pieces of the 9/11 wreckage as political gifts to crony mayors (both Dem and GOP)?

Yeah, that's one corrupt state. I'm certainly not surprised they'd shut out Tesla, in favor of their political-machine-supporting good-op-boy network of car dealers and manufacturers.

In the end, it's all about the money, and NJ has a ton of money mucking with it's politics.

Boy (2)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 8 months ago | (#46458869)

Sure would be great if I can make a law that bans competition from out of country, out of state, or whomever I do not want to compete with me when I negotiate a contract job.

What I could charge? The sky would be the limit.

Of course that is evil damn socialism for me and we can't have that now can we? But if some businesses or corporations do the same thing. Then it is for the good of the economy and ok etc.

hehe (5, Insightful)

Ol Olsoc (1175323) | about 8 months ago | (#46458881)

If you can't beat 'em, ban em.

Since we are constantly regaled how awful the Tesla is. - They all burn up, they are stupid, They are too expensive, I can't drive the Trans American Highway in one, electric cars suck - why don't we just let the free market do what it always does, eliminates bad products.

I'm pretty sure at other times, car dealership owners are all about the free market, competition, and the heartbeat of America.

Re:hehe (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459161)

- why don't we just let the free market do what it always does, eliminates bad products.

Yeah, that really worked well with Microsoft.

Violates the ZOI Rule (3, Interesting)

Ichijo (607641) | about 8 months ago | (#46458903)

The proposed rule would also require dealers to [have] the ability to show two cars...

The number two is ridiculous [wikipedia.org] and can't exist.

Re:Violates the ZOI Rule (2)

Zero__Kelvin (151819) | about 8 months ago | (#46459077)

Actually, it doesn't say that, since they aren't programming a computer, but nice unrelated reference in an atttempt to sound smart!

Re:Violates the ZOI Rule (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459209)

ZOI always holds.
even in the real world.

Re:Violates the ZOI Rule (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46460135)

Well then, explain the semaphore [wikipedia.org] .

Why can't they make an independent dealer company? (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46458917)

The solution is to bitch publicly like this for now, but the reality is they need a workaround. They need to set up a separate company much like Coke had a separate bottler. Have them do local service and be the jiffy lube of Tesla and join/kiss ass of all these regional moderately powerful/rich douche bags.

Re:Why can't they make an independent dealer compa (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459583)

Laws in Texas for example:
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/OC/htm/OC.2301.htm#2301.4671

(c) Except as provided by this section, a manufacturer or distributor may not directly or indirectly:
(1) own an interest in a franchised or nonfranchised dealer or dealership;
(2) operate or control a franchised or nonfranchised dealer or dealership; or
(3) act in the capacity of a franchised or nonfranchised dealer.

it's not the Tesla (1)

turkeydance (1266624) | about 8 months ago | (#46458937)

it's the president/precedent/prescience/whatever

Rename it .... (4, Funny)

PPH (736903) | about 8 months ago | (#46458977)

... the Bohr.

Because so many states are disallowed.

bridge (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459001)

Why can't the Governor of New Jersey act as a bridge between the two parties?

Re:bridge (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459031)

Because he doesn't do that sort of thing. Give up on it, the horse is dead.

Re:bridge (1)

Nethemas the Great (909900) | about 8 months ago | (#46459147)

He is. That's why things are flowing only in one direction while being all backed up going the other way.

Re:bridge (1)

mythosaz (572040) | about 8 months ago | (#46459335)

ZING!

Way to go, lawmakers. (1)

Dega704 (1454673) | about 8 months ago | (#46459011)

Keep up your valiant defense of the free market. :S

So what? (2)

Experiment 626 (698257) | about 8 months ago | (#46459051)

What's wrong with the requirement to be able to service customer vehicles on site? Making it as convenient as possible to buy a car but having to take it to some far off location to actually get it fixed under warranty sounds like lousy customer service.

Re:So what? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459109)

If you bought a Model S, Tesla will come pick up the car from YOUR location for service. Anyway, isn't this a market issue again? Shouldn't the consumer factor in the convenience of the nearest maintenance shop (dealer) when purchasing rather than the state?

Re:So what? (1)

geekoid (135745) | about 8 months ago | (#46459235)

It's a little more complex than that.
The Auto sales industry has a long long history of abuses, so some regulation came about because of those abuses.

Although, if Tesla will come to your door and pick it up, then this isn't an issue.

Re:So what? (5, Insightful)

Nethemas the Great (909900) | about 8 months ago | (#46459233)

Since when does the quality of customer service become the purview of law? There are no dishonest dealings going on. Customers enter into these purchases fully aware of the requirements of ownership. No one expects Walmart to provide a service center for the electronics they sell, nor a seamstress for their clothing.

This is protectionism and corrupt politics as can only be done at the local level pure and simple.

Three easy steps (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459061)

1. Find out which dealerships belong to the associations trying to block sales of electric cars.

2. Find out which cars the dealerships sell.

3. Let the car manufacturers know that you (and family members) will never consider buying their products and the reason why.

Re:Three easy steps (1)

jonwil (467024) | about 8 months ago | (#46459143)

Great except that I doubt you would be able to find any mainstream (read: affordable to normal people) car that isn't sold by at least one dealer who is anti-Tesla. (whether in New Jersey or Texas or Ohio or elsewhere)

Re:Three easy steps (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459361)

A variation of this that scares the sh!t out of gasoline companies...

Get a bunch of people together.
Decide what your acceptable, realistic target price per litre/gallon of gas/petrol is.
Pick a victim gas company.
Annouce loudly to gas companies that you are not going to buy from xxx gas company until price is met.
Follow through with your announcement. The victim company will lower prices.
Buy from whoever when prices fall below target price.
If prices rise, pick another victim company and repeat.

Not my idea but I sure can't find a flaw in the plan.

Car manfacturers are are Tesla's side, quietly (1)

mbkennel (97636) | about 8 months ago | (#46459383)


The car manufacturers are at the mercy of the dealers and dealer associations. In their heart of hearts, some would like to pursue Tesla's strategy or at least compete with the dealers.

You can punish the manufacturers but they can't do anything back.

Vehicle dealers and real estate developers are reliable large contributors to local politicians.

Re:Three easy steps (1)

just_a_monkey (1004343) | about 8 months ago | (#46459551)

So then - when everyone does that - the car companies will have to be bailed out again?

People's Republic of New Jersey Strikes Again (1)

Ritz_Just_Ritz (883997) | about 8 months ago | (#46459121)

NJ has demonstrated time and again that corrupt politics rule the day. The state car dealer association controls a substantial amount of kickba...er...political contribution budget.

Hopefully, Tesla doesn't knuckle under and just encourages NJ purchasers to head over to NY or PA and buy their cars there.

American Freedom (1)

manu144x (3377615) | about 8 months ago | (#46459227)

For a free country you americans sure have a lot of rules. Minimum square meters, service on site, minimum 2 cars, bla bla. Soviet Russia was probably less restrictive on selling freaking cars. They are CARS. Nuclear weapons have less regulations lately...

Re: American Freedom (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459317)

Freeeeeeeeeeeedoooooooooom!!111

Lolz

News at 11 (1)

houghi (78078) | about 8 months ago | (#46459237)

Companies do not like change and competition.

Why dealerships get a free ride (0)

rsilvergun (571051) | about 8 months ago | (#46459353)

thought I'd chime in on why dealerships are getting a free ride before the thread is choked with constitutionalists :P.

Dealers stock parts and provide a distribution network for said parts. This is why my '94 Honda Accord still runs (and why my Volvo 240 DL would have been running if that $#%@! hadn't rear ended me).

If we remove the dealer who is going to stock parts, deliver them, and install them? I'm sure you can come up with a thousand free market answers, but the fact is running that sort of business is _expensive_. Most of the obvious solutions become races to the bottom. Eventually either you stop getting parts and service for cars after 5 years or your start getting gouged in ways you can only imagine.

So yeah, it's a bit more complex an issue then just: Dealers Bad! Tesla Good!....

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (4, Insightful)

mojo-raisin (223411) | about 8 months ago | (#46459429)

You're making it more complex than it is.

You can get parts for anything and still get it fixed. If there is a market. You have no point.

There are no laws that require dealers to stock 20 years old parts. You have no point.

Tesla doesn't ban service on their cars. You have no point.

If many Teslas are sold, there will be a market for parts. You have no point.

If you buy a Tesla and there are a million of those Teslas sold, you will be able to get service. Even if it's not from Tesla. You have no point.

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459493)

If we remove the dealer who is going to stock parts, deliver them, and install them?

As he posts from his iPhone!

Now yes (1)

rsilvergun (571051) | about 8 months ago | (#46460091)

but the dealers run the parts network. Also, car companies keep parts around because of laws that say they have to, not because they love you as a customer.

I don't trust Tesla not to drop me like a rock when it's no longer profitable to support me...

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459443)

You should actually check facts before spewing...

http://www.teslamotors.com/findus - right column is service centers around the country.

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (2, Insightful)

whoever57 (658626) | about 8 months ago | (#46459447)

If we remove the dealer who is going to stock parts, deliver them, and install them?.....Eventually either you stop getting parts and service for cars after 5 years or your start getting gouged in ways you can only imagine

Yes, quite true. I'll just run down the road to my local (California) MG dealer to get parts for my '71 MG...... Oh wait!

Guess what, parts for my MG usually cost less than than equivalent parts on new cars.

Then address the problem (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459461)

So require all dealers to stock parts for N years. No need to have these other silly requirements that don't address your problem.

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (2)

Bruce Perens (3872) | about 8 months ago | (#46459465)

Yes, I can come up with a thousand free market answers. And yes, that pretty much answers your question.

Would you buy a vehicle from any company whatsoever if you knew that parts were difficult to acquire? A manufacturer can play a game with parts availability only if they don't plan to stay in business.

Maybe we should go back to renting our phones from ATT as well.

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46460023)

Maybe we should go back to renting our phones from ATT as well.

Kind of a silly argument when the vast, vast, vast majority of people with cellphones are getting them straight from the carrier.

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (2)

rock_climbing_guy (630276) | about 8 months ago | (#46459495)

Gouged in ways you can't imagine?

Try this one on for size. I drive a 2003 Acura TL. Several years ago, one of the headlights failed. I took it to a shop where I was told that it needed $700 worth of electrical parts from the factory. Not knowing better, I paid the bill.

Last year, I had the exact same problem with the other headlight, only now, I'm being told that it will cost over $1000. I finally did the right thing and asked for help online. I was directed to a company that had after-market parts drop-shipped to me directly from China for about $50., less than 1/20 of what the stealership wanted. The parts from that company seem just as good as the parts from the dealer, so there's one way I got gouged.

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (1)

mjr167 (2477430) | about 8 months ago | (#46459513)

I find it hard to believe that dealers are stocking parts for every single model and year ever made. Can you really walk into a dealer and pick up a part for a '94 Honda right now?

I have an 07 and have been told "X is broke. We need to get you a new one and it's going to take us Y time." Fortunately most parts are standard so you don't need to special order an oil filter. Things like oil filters, control arm brackets, and hoses don't exactly change much year over year.

There are also a number of shops and mechanics who somehow have parts and can fix cars without running an entire dealership. When I needed the rear half of my car rebuilt, I didn't go to the dealer. I sent to a body shop and they somehow managed to get parts. I'm guessing they called the manufacturer and ordered half of a car :P

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (1)

PPH (736903) | about 8 months ago | (#46459533)

If we remove the dealer who is going to stock parts, deliver them, and install them?

The Tesla service center. Owned and operated by the manufacturer but not necessarily co-located with the sales showroom.

There are federal regulations mandating service and spare parts availability. I see no problem with Tesla (or any other manufacturer or dealer) devising alternate support infrastructures for their products. So long as they meet the needs of the customer.

Tesla might actually provide better service than the average dealer. I bought a Toyota years ago from a dealer some distance from my residence and much farther away than the nearest one. If you want to se some long faces and snotty attitudes, watch the close by dealership service department when I bring in a car I didn't buy from them. Count on them leaving it parked for a few extra days "waiting for parts" just as a little "fuck you for not buying it here".

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (1)

Guspaz (556486) | about 8 months ago | (#46459545)

So the only reason for dealers to exist is to replicate the functions of an auto parts store and UPS? And that's why Tesla can't sell cars to people? That's absurd.

My buddy had to get his '95 Honda Accord repaired recently. The process for that (admittedly in Canada) was, take car to mechanic, mechanic orders parts online, parts are shipped to mechanic, mechanic installs parts. What exactly is the huge problem with that process that justifies making selling cars illegal?

Flamebait (was Re:Why dealerships get a free ride) (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459579)

Surely you can't be serious...Shirley

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (2)

khallow (566160) | about 8 months ago | (#46459581)

I'm sure you can come up with a thousand free market answers

So why did you post? There are tens of thousands of free market answers - businesses of all sorts to provide the parts or the repair service.

This isn't the first time that someone has defended a rent-seeking activity on the shady grounds that a widely available service market might not exist otherwise. I suspect most of these laws date from the last time this was tried wholesale in the US, during the Great Depression. I believe such things were a large part of why the Great Depression was so severe and long.

Eventually either you stop getting parts and service for cars after 5 years or your start getting gouged in ways you can only imagine.

You don't have to imagine the gouging. Just get work done at a dealership.

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (1)

aXis100 (690904) | about 8 months ago | (#46459591)

Bollocks.

Cars arent going to run out of parts after 5 years if a dealer stops stocking them. If there is a market for the parts then third party manufacturers will keep them coming for 20 years.

Dealerships stock some genuine parts at very large mark ups. There are plenty of other auto parts distributors that stock far more genuine and non-genuine spare parts and do so at a better price.

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459657)

Car part stocks are indeed ensured by legislation, but it has nothing to do with auto dealers. (To ensure auto makers don't create artificial demand by ensuring their older models become useless prematurely) Any free market enterprise that want to stock and sell parts can do so.

Dealers are an artifact based on obsolete business models propped up by old, obsolete legislation. They're middle men that enjoy the part of comerrce they've carved out for themselves and they're not shy to buy legislators to ensure their ability to carve out a part of your wallet every time you want to buy a new car. (Or, by extension a used car. A first sale has to occur before a second one does)

Dealers can readily be replaced, or at least forced to compete with the likes of Tesla so they can provide actual service to their customers. I don't know about you, but I fucking hate auto dealers. Fucking scum of the earth ripoff artists. I've never met one I didn't want to push off a cliff.

Re: Why dealerships get a free ride (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459757)

Because nobody has ever bought car parts anywhere but at a dealership....

Dealerships don't get a free ride, they paid for it.

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (1)

drtsystems (775462) | about 8 months ago | (#46459789)

Anyone who does their own work on their car generally acknowledges dealerships as a complete ripoff and somewhere no one who cares at all about their wallet should ever step foot in (besides, I guess, to buy a car). The colloquialism on car forums is "stealership."

NAPA, AutoZone, Advance Auto Parts, O'Reilly, etc etc provide a distribution network for parts. In fact, for an older car, you are generally more likely to find the part in stock at your local autozone than your local dealership parts counter. And, usually, for less than half the price. The free market has already provided a solution to the problem. You can get a suspension part at any price point from "cheap Chinese crap" up to "better quality than original."

And often times even "OEM" parts, which are parts produced by the manufacturer who made the original piece that went on the car. You didn't really think Honda made the parts that go in that car did you? No, they designed the specs and companies like Bosch, Moog, Luk, AC Delco developed parts to fit those specs. And are happy to sell you the identical product (sometimes with just the Honda label scratched off) for half the price Honda would charge you.

If you are the internet shopping type (which, since you are on /. seems likely), you can even get replacement parts shipped directly to your doorstep from places like RockAuto for even cheaper than you would find them at your local AutoZone (which, remember, is already probably half the price of the dealer).

You take your car to any independent mechanic and it is damn near impossible that they will get their parts from the dealer. NAPA even delivers parts to shops within hours.

Basically, if you get your Accord serviced at the stealership... er dealership, you are getting ripped off. Google ANY Honda forum and ask them to see what they say, but prepare to be flamed. If you ask nicely, they will probably even recommend good local independent mechanics for you!

Parent quoted for those using awful beta who can't click the "parent" link ;)

thought I'd chime in on why dealerships are getting a free ride before the thread is choked with constitutionalists :P.

Dealers stock parts and provide a distribution network for said parts. This is why my '94 Honda Accord still runs (and why my Volvo 240 DL would have been running if that $#%@! hadn't rear ended me).

If we remove the dealer who is going to stock parts, deliver them, and install them? I'm sure you can come up with a thousand free market answers, but the fact is running that sort of business is _expensive_. Most of the obvious solutions become races to the bottom. Eventually either you stop getting parts and service for cars after 5 years or your start getting gouged in ways you can only imagine.

So yeah, it's a bit more complex an issue then just: Dealers Bad! Tesla Good!....

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (2)

SlaveToTheGrind (546262) | about 8 months ago | (#46459793)

Dealers stock parts and provide a distribution network for said parts. This is why my '94 Honda Accord still runs

As someone who has spent quite a bit of time keeping older cars on the road, I feel compelled to ask: what [jcwhitney.com] in [autopartswarehouse.com] the [autozone.com] WORLD [napaonline.com] are you talking about?

part suppliers (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459877)

If we remove the dealer who is going to stock parts, deliver them, and install them? I'm sure you can come up with a thousand free market answers, but the fact is running that sort of business is _expensive_. Most of the obvious solutions become races to the bottom. Eventually either you stop getting parts and service for cars after 5 years or your start getting gouged in ways you can only imagine.

The same folks who carry parts for no-longer-made Bosch washing machine (whose hot water valve broke in October) that's about ten years old.

If car companies don't want to stock parts they could always release the CAD files after "x" years so anyone can make them as well.

Re:Why dealerships get a free ride (1)

mbkennel (97636) | about 8 months ago | (#46459887)

| If we remove the dealer who is going to stock parts, deliver them, and install them

Um? An auto parts supply company? The distributors of the manufacturer?

| I'm sure you can come up with a thousand free market answers, but the fact is running that sort of business is _expensive_. Most of the obvious solutions become races to the bottom. Eventually either you stop getting parts and service for cars after 5 years or your start getting gouged in ways you can only imagine.

How would the economic incentives be different between dealers and a non-dealer parts supply company? Tesla would have an interest in supplying parts for N years by law or by sales because they don't want to inhibit sales because their customers are concerned their expensive purchases will be unrepairable after 5 years. They would make sure the parts are available.

And what's so special about cars compared to other equipment where there aren't franchise laws but there is a need for parts and maintenance?

(The answer is the profitability of dealerships and their campaign contribution habits)

Did Chris Christie open the bridge? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459357)

Can anyone actually get to NJ? More importantly is there electricity there?

No win (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46459501)

Even if Tesla somehow managed to meet these new rules, it seems the NJMVC can just change them again.

Par for those folks... (1)

cjames728 (3573457) | about 8 months ago | (#46459727)

No kidding. I wouldn't expect anything different from the northern states I fled. This is the same system that can't get rid of the beer distributor system in PA that benefits no-one but their membership. Hope they all sink!

Re:Par for those folks... (1)

thrich81 (1357561) | about 8 months ago | (#46459921)

I guess you didn't flee here to Texas which already had the laws on the books prohibiting Tesla's sales model. The northern states have nothing on the South as far as businesses buying off the legislature to their benefit. Except that in the South it is actively encouraged as "Pro-Business"!

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