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Oracle Deflects Blame For Troubled Oregon Health Care Site

samzenpus posted about 7 months ago | from the who's-to-blame dept.

The Courts 163

itwbennett (1594911) writes "Oracle is gearing up for a fight with officials in Oregon over its role developing an expensive health insurance exchange website that still isn't fully operational. In a letter obtained by the Oregonian newspaper this week, Oracle co-president Safra Catz said that Oregon officials have provided the public with a 'false narrative' concerning who is to blame for Cover Oregon's woes. In the letter, Catz pointed out that Oregon's decision to act as their own systems integrator on the project, using Oracle consultants on a time-and-materials basis, was 'criticized frequently by many'. And as far as Oracle is concerned, 'Cover Oregon lacked the skills, knowledge or ability to be successful as the systems integrator on an undertaking of this scope and complexity,' she added."

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Crapware (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46784867)

Oracle doing its usual crapware!

PS:I'm a sysadmin of Oracle applications and they REALLY is shit!

Re:Crapware (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46784965)

I'm a sysadmin of Oracle applications and they REALLY is shit!

So is your orthograph.

Re:Crapware (2)

TechyImmigrant (175943) | about 7 months ago | (#46785633)

I'm a sysadmin of Oracle applications and they REALLY is shit!

So is your orthograph.

I think he was just writing in one of those Proprietary Oracle SQL variants.

It's Not Really Oracle (3, Interesting)

Greyfox (87712) | about 7 months ago | (#46784897)

It's that people think they can drop Oracle on top of a crappy design and that will somehow magically fix it. By the time people get done trying to use brute force, ignorance and massive amounts of IT resources, you may as well have Dbase III on your back end. Oracle might let you get away with a shitty design if your application didn't really need a database, but it's not going to help you that much if what you're trying to do is complicated enough to need one.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (0, Flamebait)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about 7 months ago | (#46784961)

You could drop Oracle on a thousand carrot diamond and they'd still turn it into a steaming pile of shit. It's Oracle, it's what they do best.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46784975)

Oracle as opposed to what?

MariaDB?

MySQL?

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46784993)

postgress or db2

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785217)

postgress or db2

DB2? I'll give you that.

Try setting up an active-active PostgreSQL cluster, though...

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (1)

TechyImmigrant (175943) | about 7 months ago | (#46785635)

BDB for the win, but only the version before the license change.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (1)

luis_a_espinal (1810296) | about 7 months ago | (#46786861)

postgress or db2

The term "Oracle" is now more than the database. It is a fully-integrated business stack - BPM, OSB, Coherence, WebLogic, ADF, etc, etc, etc.

I mean, seriously, this is/was about a health care site, and people think the Oracle's technology involved in it for good or bad) was just on the database part?????? W. T. F? Whether that is good or not, that's another thing, and an unimportant one because if a system is designed like crap, it won't matter what stack (proprietary or not) you use. It will be crap.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785059)

What's a thousand "carrot" diamond? I wasn't aware of any significant overlap between gemology and the vegetable kingdom.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785123)

What I love about /. the most ... the diction Nazis. Carat, carrot, you basically got the meaning of the statement bitch!!!

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (2)

arth1 (260657) | about 7 months ago | (#46785269)

Yeah, I met the statement bitch once, and she was very clear on what she meant.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785589)

Yeah, I met the statement bitch once, and she was very clear on what she meant.

"Pat, I'd like to buy a comma please?"

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785379)

Diction? You must be on some powerful hallucinogens if /. is speaking to you. For a site full of programmers who can argue the merits of about 5000 different languages and arcane, obtuse and esoteric meanings of lines of gibberish, you can't even master a simple human language? It's *our* fault you didn't go beyond speak'n'spell? You don't have any doubts as you type "carrot" that something's not right? Come on Charlie, you've written enough (mostly nonsense, but still) on here to spell a bit better than that!

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785205)

You could drop Oracle on a thousand carrot diamond and they'd still turn it into a steaming pile of shit. It's Oracle, it's what they do best.

Sadly, the reverse is also likely true - you could drop Oracle on a steaming pile of shit and it would turn it into a thousand carat diamond.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785225)

Oracle's database is quite good. With proper tuning and schemas, Oracle is amazing. It's totally a hardcore geek's RDBMS.

This article is more about their consulting services. Ultimately, Oregon had the final decision. If they hired Oracle and said, "here you handle this whole thing," that's one thing. If they hired Oracle and said, "we need you for support, but we call the shots," that's entirely another. If Oregon didn't have a single person driving it, making final decisions, setting deadlines, and did all that by committee, it's easy to see how something that complex can get bogged down.

Bet your bottom dollar Oracle covered their asses with a formal spec and timeline process, and every extension of the critical path was documented and signed off on. I don't think this will look good for the state of Oregon.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (5, Insightful)

BoRegardless (721219) | about 7 months ago | (#46785585)

What you are really saying is that Oracle knew Oregon's exchange would be a POS before they even signed the consulting contract because of the lack of Oregon bureaucrat skills, but they took the contract anyway because they knew they could as they say MILK IT!

Since they knew full well it would fail, they would document everything to the hilt, including specific warnings, while padding up the consulting, knowing full well that they would never finish the job, but would get paid a pile of money anyway to add to Larry's billions.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (3, Interesting)

alexborges (313924) | about 7 months ago | (#46785715)

Well yeah. But if this was the case, then the buyers are to blame: if they were going to wing it, they would have been way, way better hiring opensource consultants and an open source database and then get to coding like hell and even open source their whole op. If the case is that the state didnt purchase a fire and forget project, then they are as stupid as the oracle salesmen is a ghoul.

A word for 'buyers': if you are going to go macho on a thing like this, you cant be a little bitch and buy oracle. You go at it like a man and actually learn to code.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (2)

vux984 (928602) | about 7 months ago | (#46786385)

But if this was the case, then the buyers are to blame

If the buyer orders a perpetual motion machine then he's an idiot.

But any engineers and consultants taking money to work on the project are morally bankrup too.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46786507)

Really? That contract was going to be let. The problem is government contracting. Yes, I work directly in government contracting; our red tape and rule prohibit us from every being able to legally get a working product. They set out a salt lick, and blame Oracle for coming.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (1)

Vlijmen Fileer (120268) | about 7 months ago | (#46785361)

Carrot? I would also produce an enourmous steaming pile of shit if you made me eat that many carrots.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (1)

luis_a_espinal (1810296) | about 7 months ago | (#46786843)

You could drop Oracle on a thousand carrot diamond and they'd still turn it into a steaming pile of shit. It's Oracle, it's what they do best.

You are being subjective.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (1)

wiredlogic (135348) | about 7 months ago | (#46785005)

There's also nothing about running a health exchange that requires the use of an Oracle DB. The volume of data and transaction rate wouldn't stress any database. The secret sauce is in the application code, not the DB. They should have found a developer with a proven track record of delivering LAMP-style systems rather than pissing money away on a gold plated turd from a company with no grand history in developing web sites.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785257)

It's not the web site that's the hard part, it's the back end integration work. Throw in HIPAA and HITECH and you've got a stew of poo and screw you.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785283)

Well, guaranteed consistency and reliability don't seem to have been priorities for the whole ObamaCare fiasco. So they could have gone with MySQL or something and saved a bit. But I don't think the DB was the main cost here.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (5, Interesting)

ShanghaiBill (739463) | about 7 months ago | (#46785289)

Oregon's health website is a monstrosity. They budgeted way too much money, were way over ambitious, and involved way too many people. The opposite end of the spectrum is Kentucky, which budgeted the least amount of money, and was thus forced to implement a streamlined site with a small lean team. Kentucky's website was ready on Oct 1st, and has run since without a hitch.

Re:It's Not Really Oracle (2)

Tablizer (95088) | about 7 months ago | (#46785451)

It's that people think they can drop Oracle on top of a crappy design and that will somehow magically fix it.

That's probably what the sales-person told them.

"Just drop your leaky little app into our Oratron Fix-O-Matic 5000 and out will pop perfect shiny reports and data! You have my trustworthy word!"

However, seems they forgot to get it in writing.

Enh as much as I dislike Oracle... (2, Insightful)

roc97007 (608802) | about 7 months ago | (#46784899)

...in this case, they might have a point.

Re:Enh as much as I dislike Oracle... (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 7 months ago | (#46785245)

I'd assume that their legal team would be running around the company quietly busting skulls if they didn't.

"Incur significant legal exposure during the course of fucking up a high-profile project for a government client" isn't one of those good strategies.

Doing one or the other can actually be surprisingly lucrative; but both, less so.

Re:Enh as much as I dislike Oracle... (1)

Kjella (173770) | about 7 months ago | (#46785521)

Time and material contracts basically means renting consultants by the hour, short of outright criminal behavior there's no promised time frames, deliverables or guarantees of functionality or quality. The upside is the lack of formalism, I've developed many reports on a T&M basis and basically if you want a filter here and a total there and to add one more column and add a traffic light here and a drill down there just say it and I'll keep working on it until you're happy. Heck, I've taken "requirements" from a single yellow post-it note, as long as the client is happy and the invoices get paid it's a win-win for everyone compared to bids and change orders.

The problem begins if you need anything other than yes-men because basically you're going to lead these people and point them to tasks that need doing and make sure it all comes together to a working solution. Consider it a bit like building a house where every contractor assumes that the rest of the work to bring it up to code will be done by somebody else, you tell the plumber to put a pipe here, the electrician a wire there and the carpenter to board up that wall and they do it, but they don't take any responsibility on whether it's done to code or the overall result. My guess is that Oracle have their asses well covered legally, but often they have to play the scapegoat when the client has been incompetent. Usually they don't want to throw eggs in the face of the manager who hired them, unless it becomes an even bigger PR problem not to.

Re:Enh as much as I dislike Oracle... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46786911)

Time and material contracts basically means renting consultants by the hour, short of outright criminal behavior there's no promised time frames, deliverables or guarantees of functionality or quality.

I've worked on lots of projects under time and material contracts, and there were always promised time frames and deliverables. There are almost never guarantees for service work other than being held to a standard of care for the profession - but you can be sure that if we delivered piss-poor functionality and quality, we would be asked politely for compensation, and if we couldn't come to an agreement about what that should be, we would never work for that client again.

Re:Enh as much as I dislike Oracle... (2)

plover (150551) | about 7 months ago | (#46785595)

Oracle consultants were in the midst of the mess, they saw the failings, they repeatedly reported to the state that the project was going off the rails, and yet they still managed to cash their paychecks.

Had the consultants actually threatened them with "either you hire a professional to do the systems integration or we're off the job," and had they then removed themselves from the failing project, they'd be 100% blameless. But they didn't walk away, they just wrote some CYA memos and collected their money.

Oracle gets to take as much blame as anyone for their mess.

Re:Enh as much as I dislike Oracle... (3, Informative)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 7 months ago | (#46786293)

Oracle consultants were in the midst of the mess, they saw the failings, they repeatedly reported to the state that the project was going off the rails, and yet they still managed to cash their paychecks.

Then the consultants were doing their jobs.

Had the consultants actually threatened them with "either you hire a professional to do the systems integration or we're off the job," and had they then removed themselves from the failing project, they'd be 100% blameless. But they didn't walk away, they just wrote some CYA memos and collected their money.

But it was not the consultants' job to do this. In fact, if they'd walked off the job as you advocate, they'd very likely be opening themselves up to a lawsuit for breach of contract.

Re:Enh as much as I dislike Oracle... (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 7 months ago | (#46786333)

But it was not the consultants' job to do this. In fact, if they'd walked off the job as you advocate, they'd very likely be opening themselves up to a lawsuit for breach of contract.

Actually, I posted this a bit hastily. What I should have said was something more like, "If they'd walked off the job as you advocate, they'd very likely be opening up Oracle to a lawsuit for breach of contract, and themselves to getting fired by Oracle for doing so."

Zontar The Mindless: Eat your words (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46786371)

"Your hosts file app is SPYWARE, dude." - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Wednesday April 09, 2014 @02:43AM (#46702387) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You said MY program's a spyware?

Here's CONTRARY PROOF FROM A REPUTABLE SECURITY COMMUNITY source http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] who hosts my app (malwarebytes hpHosts) which you are FREE TO VERIFY by email if you like as MY proof!

(Which I always produce from reputable sources, NOT fellow "trolls" whom I destroyed, like I am destroying YOU (see ps below)):

---

"for a crapware host files app that nobody in his right mind wants to allow anywhere close to his system" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @12:24PM (#46769393) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You say my program's crapware?

Disprove 17 points here showing hosts give uses more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity then since YOu say my program's "crapware" http://start64.com/index.php?o... [start64.com]

---

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Show us a post where I put up material on hosts where it doesn't apply.

You can't, can you? Nope - That makes YOU a liar.

---

You said by turning up cpu priorities in my program I am turning off the processscheduler?

"He's effectively turning off the Windows process scheduler" - FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Question:

How would the process scheduler be turned off by doing that?

APK

P.S.=> Same with using arstechnica as your backers - BIG mistake!

I annihilated arstechnica, & outside their private playpen where THEY STALKED ME TO @ Windows IT Pro forums http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] , no less!

You can't explain WHY Jeremy Reimer and Jay Little's websites were removed by CrystalTech &/or Shaw CA hosting providers

IF I'm "so bad", why'd THAT happen to 'em? apk

Zontar The Mindless: Eat Your Words (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46786377)

"Your hosts file app is SPYWARE, dude." - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Wednesday April 09, 2014 @02:43AM (#46702387) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You said MY program's a spyware?

Here's CONTRARY PROOF FROM A REPUTABLE SECURITY COMMUNITY source http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] who hosts my app (malwarebytes hpHosts) which you are FREE TO VERIFY by email if you like as MY proof!

(Which I always produce from reputable sources, NOT fellow "trolls" whom I destroyed, like I am destroying YOU (see ps below)):

---

"for a crapware host files app that nobody in his right mind wants to allow anywhere close to his system" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @12:24PM (#46769393) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You say my program's crapware?

Disprove 17 points here showing hosts give uses more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity then since YOu say my program's "crapware" http://start64.com/index.php?o... [start64.com]

---

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Show us a post where I put up material on hosts where it doesn't apply.

You can't, can you? Nope - That makes YOU a liar.

---

You said by turning up cpu priorities in my program I am turning off the processscheduler?

"He's effectively turning off the Windows process scheduler" - FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Question:

How would the process scheduler be turned off by doing that?

APK

P.S.=> Same with using arstechnica as your backers - BIG mistake!

I annihilated arstechnica, & outside their private playpen where THEY STALKED ME TO @ Windows IT Pro forums http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] , no less!

You can't explain WHY Jeremy Reimer and Jay Little's websites were removed by CrystalTech &/or Shaw CA hosting providers

IF I'm "so bad", why'd THAT happen to 'em? apk

Re:Enh as much as I dislike Oracle... (1)

RabidReindeer (2625839) | about 7 months ago | (#46786215)

...in this case, they might have a point.

The point being that if you give the ENTIRE project to Oracle instead of just part of it that it would all have been wonderful?

Re:Enh as much as I dislike Oracle... (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 7 months ago | (#46786335)

The point being that if they'd given the entire project to Oracle, then the entire project would in fact be Oracle's responsibility. But they didn't, and so it isn't.

Zontar The Mindless: Eat your words (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46786359)

"Your hosts file app is SPYWARE, dude." - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Wednesday April 09, 2014 @02:43AM (#46702387) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You said MY program's a spyware?

Here's CONTRARY PROOF FROM A REPUTABLE SECURITY COMMUNITY source http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] who hosts my app (malwarebytes hpHosts) which you are FREE TO VERIFY by email if you like as MY proof!

(Which I always produce from reputable sources, NOT fellow "trolls" whom I destroyed, like I am destroying YOU (see ps below)):

---

"for a crapware host files app that nobody in his right mind wants to allow anywhere close to his system" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @12:24PM (#46769393) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You say my program's crapware?

Disprove 17 points here showing hosts give uses more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity then since YOu say my program's "crapware" http://start64.com/index.php?o... [start64.com]

---

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Show us a post where I put up material on hosts where it doesn't apply.

You can't, can you? Nope - That makes YOU a liar.

---

You said by turning up cpu priorities in my program I am turning off the processscheduler?

"He's effectively turning off the Windows process scheduler" - FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Question:

How would the process scheduler be turned off by doing that?

APK

P.S.=> Same with using arstechnica as your backers - BIG mistake!

I annihilated arstechnica, & outside their private playpen where THEY STALKED ME TO @ Windows IT Pro forums http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] , no less!

You can't explain WHY Jeremy Reimer and Jay Little's websites were removed by CrystalTech &/or Shaw CA hosting providers

IF I'm "so bad", why'd THAT happen to 'em? apk

Re:Zontar The Mindless: Eat your words (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 7 months ago | (#46786395)

APK, we're in the midst of a discussion based on facts and logic.

How could this involve you in any way, size, shape, or form?

Zontar talks with his mouth full? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46786519)

Of his words (qiuoted) he has to eat here (not polite) http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Zontar the Mindless: Eat your words (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46786533)

"Your hosts file app is SPYWARE, dude." - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Wednesday April 09, 2014 @02:43AM (#46702387) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You said MY program's a spyware?

Ok: CONTRARY PROOF from a REPUTABLE security community source http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] who hosts my app (malwarebytes hpHosts) which you are FREE TO VERIFY by email if you like as MY proof!

---

"for a crapware host files app that nobody in his right mind wants to allow anywhere close to his system" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @12:24PM (#46769393) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

You say my program's crapware?

Disprove 17 points here showing hosts give uses more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity then since YOu say my program's "crapware" http://start64.com/index.php?o... [start64.com]

---

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Show us a post where I put up material on hosts where it doesn't apply.

You can't, can you? Nope - That makes YOU a liar.

---

"He's effectively turning off the Windows process scheduler" - FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org]

Question:

How would the process scheduler be turned off by doing that?

APK

P.S.=> Same with using arstechnica as your backers - BIG mistake!

I annihilated arstechnica, & outside their private playpen where THEY STALKED ME TO @ Windows IT Pro forums http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] , no less!

You can't explain WHY Jeremy Reimer and Jay Little's websites were removed by CrystalTech &/or Shaw CA hosting providers

IF I'm "so bad", why'd THAT happen to 'em? apk

Re:Zontar The Mindless: Eat your words (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46786589)

This involves a libelous lying little scumbag (you) http://slashdot.org/comments.p... [slashdot.org] and you're running from it scumbag.

Never bring politics... (4, Funny)

tlambert (566799) | about 7 months ago | (#46784901)

Never bring politics... to an electronic documentation of timeline fight with a database company.

Re:Never bring politics... (2)

litehacksaur111 (2895607) | about 7 months ago | (#46784999)

Oracle does this on nearly every project they work on. Same with IBM, TCS, Wipro, etc. All of those H1B visa abusing companies will never deliver on what they say and instead will fight the meaning of every word in the contract.

Re:Never bring politics... (1)

ADRA (37398) | about 7 months ago | (#46785293)

I was an after-the-fact consultant to fix a botched IBM project, and I guess the penalties were so high that IBM bankrolled the re-implementation with on-shore workers to get the project finished. Whenever you go into bed with an SI, make sure you have an iron clad contract and many penalty clauses.

PS: WiPro is almost entirely indian, so I don't know what H1B has to do with anything unless there's some contract requirement to have staff on-shore, which makes little sense when the purpose is to cut dev. costs

Re:Never bring politics... (2)

l0n3s0m3phr34k (2613107) | about 7 months ago | (#46785789)

indeed, WiPro originally was a vegetable oil manufacturer, and stands for Western India Products Limited. I've dealt with them many times via supporting clients while working support at HP. Once you can get past the Indian's odd "your a stupid American" attitude (which usually I can't blame them!) they are mostly competent. In my situation, most of their "issues" and "failures" actually result from too-restricted access to various systems their trying to work on, crappy equipment their forced to use by their clients...for example one programmer I was trying to help had an ANCIENT laptop that our mutual client said had to be used for any work; he couldn't use his own (or even WiPro's) equipment but was forced to try and do some SQL dev on a D600...he needed software that our client didn't provide but was completely restricted to installing anything outside of NetIQ-pushed software packages on it. I felt for him...he even said he had an MSDN subscription and all the apps he needed but would be fired if he installed anything outside on it.

Re:Never bring politics... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785023)

I'm tearing up laughing; posting AC and wishing I could dump 14 more mod points into your comment...

Can you legally say bad things about Oracle? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46784911)

I thought all of Oracles engagements and agreements contractually banned you from saying anything bad about them, doing any benchmarks, describing the scope of the agreement, or how well it performed.

 

If you think that's bad... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46784953)

Take a look at CUNYFirst. Oracle should be tried for treason for setting that up for the CUNY system. It's estimated to be costing tens of millions of dollars in lost productivity.. And counting.

Re:If you think that's bad... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785091)

I've seen many a fortune 500 company brought to their knees as a result of using Oracle for major projects. It's amazing that word of their ability to destroy everything they touch has not gotten around more in the business world.

Re:If you think that's bad... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785615)

Who are they going to bring in to replace the incompetent Oracle contractors? Incompetent Accenture contractors? Incompetent Microsoft contractors? Incompetent IBM contractors?

Maybe the problem isn't with using Oracle, maybe the problem is that if you need to bring in contractors you're already doing it wrong.

Re:If you think that's bad... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785287)

But what about CUNYLingus?

origins of life first there was bananas (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46784995)

then there was momkind, creations' representative under the sun http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=native+spirit+origins we'd just be fruity goop without her?

heres what i think about oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785001)

fuck beta
and then fuck oracle

Re:heres what i think about oracle (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785765)

Oracle is better than beta.

mod u p (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785041)

the deal with you free-loving climate are looking very their 6parting

Shocked (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785073)

Catz pointed out that Oregon's decision to act as their own systems integrator on the project, using Oracle consultants on a time-and-materials basis, was 'criticized frequently by many'...

Sooooo, Oracle probably bid on the SI gig and OR didn't bite probably because of sticker shock. Of course they are going to "point out" issues with SI tasks. Is anyone surprised by this???

ADF Blows (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785101)

MA uses a system built on ADF and it pretty much blows from a user interface point of view. One input error or unexpected value and it is forever caught in a loop flashing some obscure error message

Ah yes, public office... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785137)

Nothing gets so screwed up as when they leave everything to consultants.... except for when they don't, and I say that working in the public sector. Particularly one project manager I know always delivers a good presentation, a wordy report and a "bits of string and duct tape" demo to show how it would look like if it actually worked. He basically spent the last year on a project to show we can do delta updates using unique keys, the whole "implementation" was essentially one SQL MERGE statement but they pissed off hundreds of internal and consulting hours on irrelevant crap. Which of course failed to address any of the hard issues involved, but the proof of concept was declared a success. Then he dumps the entire unsolved mess over on more technical people to work out the implementation. Or really everything, then blames us for not making it come true.

Typical BS (1)

maz2331 (1104901) | about 7 months ago | (#46785181)

So, we're seeing the fingers of the horn-hairs pointing at each other for a failure that their brown-nosed underlings caused on both sides. Don't blame the geeks, blame the suits.

Larry The Jew Ellison at it again! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785187)

We need a final solution to this problem.

Re:Larry The Jew Ellison at it again! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785323)

The Veterans Affairs has been using an EMR for Decades. If Obama was serious about getting us all on the same page, he would make everyone use the EMR system of the VA.. yes it would suk big time. But we would all be in the same suck together. AND IT WOULD SAVE A LOT OF TAXES because that's what is paying for all this EMR bs anyway.

Of course, the irony is that the final solution would be provided by the military...

Yes yes we had all these objections before signing (5, Insightful)

linuxguy (98493) | about 7 months ago | (#46785213)

We were forced to sign this contract. On gun point actually. And then they said that we should take their money or they'll break our knee caps.

You see, we are the victims here.

Larry

Re:Yes yes we had all these objections before sign (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785581)

Ah yes, much lke the current healthcare law. Sign up or else.

Oracle has skills and knowledge? (4, Insightful)

geekmux (1040042) | about 7 months ago | (#46785255)

"...'Cover Oregon lacked the skills, knowledge or ability to be successful as the systems integrator on an undertaking of this scope and complexity,'

Gee, that's funny. And here I thought I was in the majority in thinking that it is in fact Oracle who lacks the skills, knowledge, or ability to fix that piece-of-shit Frankenstein they want to label a working product.

I suppose if you thought you were buying a perpetual bug and patch service, sure. They're fucking awesome at that. I might even be so bold as to say #1 in the industry.

Re:Oracle has skills and knowledge? (4, Insightful)

Kjella (173770) | about 7 months ago | (#46785537)

"...'Cover Oregon lacked the skills, knowledge or ability to be successful as the systems integrator on an undertaking of this scope and complexity,'

Gee, that's funny. And here I thought I was in the majority in thinking that it is in fact Oracle who lacks the skills, knowledge, or ability to fix that piece-of-shit Frankenstein they want to label a working product.

False dichotomy, it's not one or the other.

Re:Oracle has skills and knowledge? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46786185)

I suppose if you thought you were buying a perpetual bug and patch service, sure. They're fucking awesome at that. I might even be so bold as to say #1 in the industry.

I thought SAP was at #1. Are you sure?

Sounds like Oregon's Fault (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785271)

I work with Oracle software. It has its issues, and the company is certainly focused on, if not obsessed with, revenues. But if the project was on a T&M basis then the fault lies entirely with Oregon. From earlier stories it sounded like Oracle was the integrator who ran way over budget, so the charge of a false narrative seems to be valid.

ALL the exchanges failed (3, Insightful)

Karmashock (2415832) | about 7 months ago | (#46785329)

All of them.

In the case of all of them failing you have to look at the common denominator because ALL of them failed.

Newsflash... Oracle was not involved in all of the exchanges.

The central problem was that the rollout was rushed for political reasons.

If it were slowed down then the republicans might have had more success killing it before implementation. Even now it might well die. So the democrats rushed the rollout.

And this is the result.

That is not Oracle's fault. We all have experience with projects that are rushed through planning to the point where they are unworkable.

That's all this is... nothing more or less.

Re:ALL the exchanges failed (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785465)

All of them.

In the case of all of them failing you have to look at the common denominator because ALL of them failed.

Newsflash... Oracle was not involved in all of the exchanges.

The central problem was that the rollout was rushed for political reasons.

If it were slowed down then the republicans might have had more success killing it before implementation. Even now it might well die. So the democrats rushed the rollout.

And this is the result.

That is not Oracle's fault. We all have experience with projects that are rushed through planning to the point where they are unworkable.

That's all this is... nothing more or less.

Yeah, you're right. I don't know why so many of us jumped on Oracle here. I mean c'mon, of all the products I've ever worked with in my data center, Oracle always installed just beautifully and ran flawlessly. And cheap too! Starting at only a few million regardless of company size. And even when we didn't even budget for it, Oracle was nice enough to hand us more invoices and bills as time went on, because you know, the occasional patch was needed, and we did run across some tiny bugs and annoyances from time to time, but we hear this the world 'round with Oracle about how it runs so smoothly with just a minor patch here and ther...

Sorry, my bullshit meter was pegged, and these hip waders only go so high. I'm not gonna ruin my new hat, so I'll just stop here before we're up to our eyeballs in it.

Bottom line is if you have been in IT for any length of time, you know damn well how culpable Oracle can easily be in this clusterfuck, regardless of speed of deployment, which is usually rushed in Oracle implementations because you've blown past the deadline by months, ran out of consulting money to get it finished six or seven figures ago, and of course that is all because the product runs...so...well...

Re:ALL the exchanges failed (1)

Karmashock (2415832) | about 7 months ago | (#46785561)

I have lots of experience with Oracle and you had better believe that the state of Oregon did as well.

The state signed the contracts with Oracle and fucked up.

JUST LIKE EVERY SINGLE OTHER EXCHANGE IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.

At this point you're dealing with very simple logic.

Solve for X and then agree with me.

Re:ALL the exchanges failed (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46786509)

I have lots of experience with Oracle and you had better believe that the state of Oregon did as well.

The state signed the contracts with Oracle and fucked up.

JUST LIKE EVERY SINGLE OTHER EXCHANGE IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.

At this point you're dealing with very simple logic.

Solve for X and then agree with me.

Yes, it must be political pressure that created the other 99% of negative comments here. We all must be doing it wrong.

It certainly couldn't be the fault of a shitty product that requires a level of ignorance to believe you or anyone else that it runs well and is not to blame. Sorry, that is a level of ignorance most cannot tolerate, including me.

As I said before, rushed or not rushed, it doesn't really matter with Oracle. The sad part is even IF Oracle was set up to fail from the start across THE ENTIRE COUNTRY for whatever political or corrupt reason, they would likely have some kind of lawsuit on their hands. Ironically, they don't seem to give a shit about the negative publicity, as they are unable to see or hear past the STACKS OF MONEY they made from this "failure".

As in banking, when the crime outperforms the fine every time in revenue, you know what kind of activity will ultimately win. Your shareholders practically demand it.

Re:ALL the exchanges failed (1)

Karmashock (2415832) | about 7 months ago | (#46786615)

The vast majority of oracle applications work quite well.

Saying otherwise merely admits your own ignorance.

Re:ALL the exchanges failed (1)

Tablizer (95088) | about 7 months ago | (#46785523)

was that the rollout was rushed for political reasons. If it were slowed down then the republicans might have had more success killing it before implementation.

That might be "political" reasons, but it's also practical reasons. If you want to get certain things done, you have to race against competition trying to kill it.

For about 100 years various presidents and lawmaking groups have tried to enact a medical insurance program of some sort, only to see it smashed down. With that kind of record you know you have to move quickly and take some risk to slip through the narrow cracks of opportunity that present themselves.

Like it or hate it, ACA is a monumental political endeavor with equally monumental forces pushing against it. The horse has to be big and ride fast to get something like this through, and that probably means inadvertently stepping on and squashing stuff along the way.

When Biden was caught on mike saying, "This is a big fucking deal!", it was no exaggeration.

Re:ALL the exchanges failed (1)

Karmashock (2415832) | about 7 months ago | (#46785573)

Its a concern that is not Oracle's fault or responsibility.

You tell me you want a house built in two days... Fine... but if you expect there to not be serious problems and unforeseen issues as a result of rushing through the planning phase and then constantly changing the mission premeters throughout development... then you're being unreasonable.

Projects that are effective tend to have two things going for them.

1. A lengthy planning phase where everything is spelled out in detail.

2. A no nonsense implementation phase where the plan as developed in step one is fleshed out almost verbatim.

Anything else is a crapshoot.

Re:ALL the exchanges failed (1)

whoever57 (658626) | about 7 months ago | (#46785617)

You tell me you want a house built in two days... Fine... but if you expect there to not be serious problems and unforeseen issues as a result of rushing through the planning phase and then constantly changing the mission premeters throughout development... then you're being unreasonable.

Newsflash .. customers are often unreasonable.

In your scenario, if the contractor signs a contract to build the house in two days, then the contractor is liable if the house is not ready in two days. As the contractor, you should not take on a contractual resposibility that you cannot deliver. That's just as true for building a house as it is for building a large website.

As the contractor, you should have the expertise to decide to refuse the deal if the terms are impossible, or take actions to eliminate the risk.

Re:ALL the exchanges failed (1)

Karmashock (2415832) | about 7 months ago | (#46785695)

I think you'll find that in any contract, there is a notion of specificity.

If you don't specify what "done" looks like in the contract then the contractor can argue that "his version of done" satisfies the terms of the contract.

Furthermore, they didn't hire Oracle on to do it. they rather did the integration in house using Oracle contractors to answer questions and do parts of the project.

It could be argued by Oracle that the the failure was in the integration and not in anything they provided.

As to the cost of Oracle products... no one says the company is cheap or inexpensive. And that isn't against the law.

Oracle is pricy. They're the no nonsense enterprise database company.

If you have to ask what that costs you can't afford it.

Re:ALL the exchanges failed (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785643)

http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/million-lines-of-code/

Yes, monumental. I'm amazed any of that shit even ran at all for however long it did. Wow, epic fail of a paradigm!

Re:ALL the exchanges failed (4, Informative)

Cyberax (705495) | about 7 months ago | (#46785541)

Actually, no. KyNect worked without downtime on its frontend, however its backend was not very stable - as it had to interact with the federal exchange.

Re:ALL the exchanges failed (1)

cascadingstylesheet (140919) | about 7 months ago | (#46786227)

You're close ... it's the "business" itself that is unworkable in this case . That's the common denominator.

"Do a bad idea ... but on a computer!" does not stop it from being a bad idea. It just digitizes the implementation of the damage.

Re:ALL the exchanges failed (1)

Karmashock (2415832) | about 7 months ago | (#46786239)

if by business you mean the ACA, then I think most would have to admit it was very poorly done.

If you mean insurance itself... that worked for many years prior and continues to work for home insurance, car insurance, etc without much of a problem.

The issue comes largely from politicians writing rules for a very complicated issue that they don't understand and lack the proper respect to handle slowly and rationally.

Anything that takes more then 10 seconds to understand is either not addressed at all or half assed horribly.

its just the nature of how they do things and we have representatives precisely so this doesn't happen. It was known that the average citizen if given a chance would generally respond to issues of the moment... at least in our masses. And not look into anything with depth. So representatives were created to address that issue.

Sadly they're not doing their jobs. They respond to moment to moment political issues and never bother to find elegant solutions to complex issues.

It's not Oracle's fault! (3, Informative)

Vlijmen Fileer (120268) | about 7 months ago | (#46785353)

It's the customers' fault. EVERYBODY in the IT business already knows that Oracle invariably gives you:
- Bizarely high price
- Incomplete project result
- Project delays
- Low quality
- Extreme vendor lock in
E.v.e.r.y s.i.n.g.l.e p.r.o.j.e.c.t they do.
I'm not sure whther to cry or laugh at this. Just don't go with Oracle, every sane IT professional knows that.

Re:It's not Oracle's fault! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785381)

'tis true

The consultant is ALWAYS responsible (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785355)

A company as experienced as Oracle cannot flop at this scale. They should know how to either a) get a good result or b) turn down the contract. Failure is not an option when talking tens of millions of tax-payer money. If there were problems, they should have seen them coming. If there were things they needed in order to be successful, they should have included guaranteed access to those things in the service contract. This is totally unacceptable.

Re:The consultant is ALWAYS responsible (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785647)

They should know how to either a) get a good result or b) turn down the contract. Failure is not an option when talking tens of millions of tax-payer money.

What you apparently don't understand is that failure to collect the money is not tolerated at Oracle. Ever. It doesn't matter where the money comes from, it doesn't matter who's mother you have to stomp on to grab the check, if they did not get that contract Larry would have twisted that project manager's head off and crapped down his neck as an example to the others. He'd then sue the dead project manager's family for the dry cleaning bills to get the blood off his clothes.

"The Ellisons always collect their debts."

Oracle burning bridges (1)

Tablizer (95088) | about 7 months ago | (#46785415)

Oracle should accept some losses and quietly make an amiable-as-possible exit. Why air dirty laundry about clients? Even if the State is partly to blame, being a loud asshole makes you less likely to get future gov't contracts.

Re:Oracle burning bridges (2)

bobthesungeek76036 (2697689) | about 7 months ago | (#46785455)

Oracle should accept some losses and quietly make an amiable-as-possible exit. Why air dirty laundry about clients? Even if the State is partly to blame, being a loud asshole makes you less likely to get future gov't contracts.

You have no idea the level of arrogance that exists at Oracle...

Re:Oracle burning bridges (1)

Tablizer (95088) | about 7 months ago | (#46785599)

You mean the org resembles its leader?

Re:Oracle burning bridges (1)

bobthesungeek76036 (2697689) | about 7 months ago | (#46785675)

It's a required personality trait to work there...

Re:Oracle burning bridges (1)

munch117 (214551) | about 7 months ago | (#46785981)

You're assuming they have a good reputation to spoil. They don't. They get contracts because there's a superstition that the way to build a database-backed system that scales is to buy the most expensive database you can find.

Big Plate (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785601)

Here is a nice glossy document from Oracle about the project: http://www.oracle.com/us/solut... [oracle.com]

It looks like Oregon went with pure Oracle solutions rather than say Oracle RDBMS with Websphere.

Below is a list of the Oracle solutions used. Where I work we do our own integration (even though alot of Accenture talent is involved) and this would be a tricky task for our IT department. Maybe we aren't the fastest, but it seems it would take about 3 years to get something like this going. (It is a $200 million implementation, pretty good size).

An IT dept better have alot of experience to roll all this themselves. My company can do it but we have hundreds of talented people available. The only time we consult Oracle is when buggy behavior is found.

Siebel Customer Relationship
Management applications, Oracleâ(TM)s
policy automation solution for public
sector, Oracle Hyperion Planning,
Oracle Business Intelligence
Enterprise Edition, Oracle Identity
Management, Oracle WebCenter
Portal, Oracle SOA Suite, Oracle
Master Data Management, Oracle
Enterprise Architecture Framework,
Oracle Architecture Development
Process, Oracle enterprise
architecture solutions

The Republicans didn't want it to work (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785769)

Why blame Oracle when the people that rule that state didn't want it to work. Republicans are still made that Obama finally forced ERs to provide life saving treatment and deliver babies. There are no more poor women giving birth in back alleys like we had under Bush.

Project success (1)

symbolset (646467) | about 7 months ago | (#46785813)

The project was a huge success. It separated Oregon from their money, right?

Oracle is right. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46785993)

It is the implementation architecture, planning and execution that is responsible. It is silly to blame the tool or the vendor. It is like blaming the oven when a cake does not come out right.

Project Lead is 100% responsible... (2)

Craig Cruden (3592465) | about 7 months ago | (#46786063)

It does sound as though the primary blame has to be put at the Oregon's officials since Oregon was the lead on the project. The lead is always 100% responsible for the project, after the project failed they are trying to say "ohh, not my fault"... If the project was off the rails early on, they should have seen it -- regardless of communications and adjusted (and if Oracle was not doing it's job - fired them). Obviously Oregon wants to have a scapegoat, but apparently forgot to pay them for that service.

Did they ever get Oracle to install? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46786339)

I tried installing the latest Oracle on a Fedora machine and it was such a broken mess I had to back off to 11g. Since the "good old days" of Oracle 6 and 7, I do not think I've ever gotten a clean install of Oracle without some kind of crash. Usually, I can get it up enough to bring up a database. For some reason, 11g is stable on Linux, and other than the usual install errors (mysterious make failures, database creation errors, and so on) it mostly works. Although I'm probably getting left behind with my development skills by using this version, unless everyone else has frozen on 11g too.

So this Oregon thing had "fail" written on it from day one.

Project management (2)

drolli (522659) | about 7 months ago | (#46786355)

I am working as a consultant.

My good advice to every customer is: dont buy consultant work as time and material. Buying as time and material puts the wrong incentives to everybody:

-Your own people will feel that they still can just use them as normal workers and keep all decisions (and thus responsibility) to themself

-The consultants dont care, since just doing what your own people tell them without thinking is what gets their monthly timesheets signed. If something goes wrong they can even sell more hours, not less

-The consulting company does not care (and rigthly so since that was not what you asked for) and will send you inexperiences junior consultants wherever possible.

-Coding quality has to be reviewd by your own people (or just accepted as it is)

-Your own people are usually vastly inferior at project management in comparison to the average senior consultant - in a non T&M contract the usual situation is that you get the things done in time or you will loose money.

boo-oo (1)

kbdd (823155) | about 7 months ago | (#46786409)

Let's summarize: Oracle took money to perform a job. They disagreed with the way it was handled. Nevertheless they stayed in and kept collecting money. Now they say they had noting to do with it?
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