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How Secret Partners Expand NSA's Surveillance Dragnet

timothy posted about 3 months ago | from the if-they're-gonna-do-it-anyhow dept.

Communications 63

Advocatus Diaboli (1627651) writes It has already been widely reported that the NSA works closely with eavesdropping agencies in the United Kingdom, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia as part of the so-called Five Eyes surveillance alliance. But the latest Snowden documents show that a number of other countries, described by the NSA as "third-party partners," are playing an increasingly important role – by secretly allowing the NSA to install surveillance equipment on their fiber-optic cables. The NSA documents state that under RAMPART-A, foreign partners "provide access to cables and host U.S. equipment." This allows the agency to covertly tap into "congestion points around the world" where it says it can intercept the content of phone calls, faxes, e-mails, internet chats, data from virtual private networks, and calls made using Voice over IP software like Skype.

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De-fund the NSA Completely (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47276773)

This is oppressive and unconstitutional.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47276833)

Why do you hate the USA? Should be strung up from a tall tree.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47277101)

I'm sure he loves the USA, else he wouldn't have said that.

Ah red herring. You must think that de-funding the oppressive and unconstitutional NSA = hating the USA

That red herring has been swimming upstream since about 9/11

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47278979)

let me be the first to say *whoosh!*

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47282339)

let me be the first to say Poe's Law

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47280917)

Why do you hate the USA? Should be strung up from a tall tree.

OP here.

I hate what the USA has become. The NSA has been engaging in wholesale illegal activity. Its own "oversight" courts have found it in violation of the law. Its directors and representatives have repeatedly lied to Congress under oath, when they weren't actively keeping congress and the courts in the dark. (I'm calling you out, James Clapper and Keith Alexander! You owe a full account to the American people.)

Reasonable Americans can reasonably debate the purpose of the NSA and its surveillance apparatus, and while I am clearly of the opinion that the NSA should be completely dismantled, and its lying, traitorous directors should be shot or hung in the public square, as an example of what happens when you so egregiously violate the Constitution and the oath you took to protect it, I would accept it if the majority of Americans said, no, we need the NSA. That's democracy.

However, it is entirely beyond the pale for this to happen in secret. We cannot possibly have that national debate if we are lied to and kept in the dark.

I don't hate the USA at all, which is why I care enough to stand up to those who bully us with their secrecy and power.

My name is Andrew Faehnle. I am an American citizen. I am standing up to be counted and answered to, as is my democratic right.

Can you say the same, can you name yourself, Mister "Why do you hate the USA?"

Speak up. Say your name, publicly, and provide rationale for your libelous name calling, or please exit the debate.

That's right. You're a coward, and Clapper and Alexander are too. Of course you support each other, because without secrecy, you have nothing.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47276861)

Documents look like it's primarily focused at foreign targets with cooperation from other countries. Shouldn't the NSA be doing foreign intelligence collection?

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (4, Insightful)

Mordok-DestroyerOfWo (1000167) | about 3 months ago | (#47276909)

One could make the argument for targeted foreign intelligence collection. All that they've succeeded in doing so far is further eroding the already shaky reputation enjoyed by the United States. At best the NSA spins its wheels, at worst it's counter-productive to the U.S. economy.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (4, Insightful)

rolfwind (528248) | about 3 months ago | (#47277061)

I think the most powerful argument that can be made against the NSA (and today's government in general) is that it was once seen as a necessary evil that could be harnessed to protect liberties. It surely wasn't anywhere near perfect ever, but it was hoped that over time, it would eventually slide towards perfection as a servant of the people.

Now, does anyone seriously believe the government is anything but a bureaucratic monster, gorging itself via wars (on terrorism, on poverty, on drugs, etc) to the end of enlarging itself and shrinking everyone else's pie? I mean seriously?

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (2)

znrt (2424692) | about 3 months ago | (#47279515)

Now, does anyone seriously believe the government is anything but a bureaucratic monster, gorging itself via wars (on terrorism, on poverty, on drugs, etc) to the end of enlarging itself and shrinking everyone else's pie? I mean seriously?

me. actually government is just a proxy for enlarging the pie of a few. it's just a coverup for private tyrants.

"we the people" should oppose this, uphold our rights etc. we don't because we are mostly dumb and lazy, but anyway if we tried hard enough to be taken seriously they would simply kill enough of us to keep the rest in line.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47280067)

Now, does anyone seriously believe the government is anything but a bureaucratic monster, gorging itself via wars (on terrorism, on poverty, on drugs, etc) to the end of enlarging itself and shrinking everyone else's pie?

You know, I just realized this but the US is extraordinarily bad at wars. Stupifyingly bad. Sure, they're good at blowing shit up and fucking with shit but actual progress is only rarely made. On the contrary actually
Examples of the war on...
- terrorism: it's still there, and by killing some of them you pissed off a bunch more goat fuckers that will now happily act against the US
- poverty: it's still there and more poor people are in jail than ever before
- drugs: you're losing and despite you trying to jail your way out of it
- illiteracy: has grown
- Iraq: falling to pieces as we speak

I could go on... but seriously, you guys SUCK at wars... just stop using that terminology alltogether

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (2)

rolfwind (528248) | about 3 months ago | (#47281301)

It would be counter to purposes to "win" those wars, when fighting them enriches the special interests involved in pushing them in the first place.

Treatments bring money, cures do not.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (1)

Parker Lewis (999165) | about 3 months ago | (#47282359)

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

Re: De-fund the NSA Completely (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47279151)

Targeted? Their letterhead says Collect Everything. Funny how people are so eager to offer US Constitutional Rights to non citizens around the world, until you get to the 4th Amendment. Then it's screw them, they aren't Americans so they don't count.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (5, Insightful)

Travis Mansbridge (830557) | about 3 months ago | (#47276975)

The way they operate (at least within ECHELON a.k.a. "five eyes" / AUSCANNZUKUS) is that we spy on their citizens while they spy on ours, and then information is exchanged after the fact, thereby avoiding any country "spying on its own citizens." It's essentially a loophole in the 4th amendment and its counterparts in those countries.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (2)

whoever57 (658626) | about 3 months ago | (#47277275)

It's essentially a loophole in the 4th amendment and its counterparts in those countries.

I don't believe it is a loophole. The NSA and it's supporters are using it for a bullshit claim that it's a loophole. As yet, I don't think the Supreme Court has weighed in on this question.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47277543)

The Supreme Court is pretty cowardly about that stuff. They have, time and again, utterly failed to rule that if the government is prohibited from doing X, and doing Y achieves the same goal, then Y is also prohibited. Example: the federal government has no power to set a national drinking age. It is specifically given to the states in the amendment that repealed Prohibition. So they threaten to withhold highway funds unless states do it for them, and that goal is achieved.

One's opinion on the issue shouldn't be relevant: the effect of this is that Congress has done something that they are in fact not allowed to do. The mechanism is irrelevant to a thinking person. Yet the Supreme Court had no problem with this, and of course since it only affected young people nobody in the US stood up for it. Now we have this massive spying problem going on, using much the very same logic, and you expect the Supreme Court to apply proper logic to it? I very much doubt it.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (4, Insightful)

m00sh (2538182) | about 3 months ago | (#47277083)

Documents look like it's primarily focused at foreign targets with cooperation from other countries. Shouldn't the NSA be doing foreign intelligence collection?

The main question is for what purpose?

Is it for national security or for other reasons? If I had data like this, I could probably make a killing in the stock market or provide lots of insider information for hedge funds.

Another scary situations like the Iran Shah manipulation or mujahadeen in Afghanistan. Powerful agencies being able to manipulate government, countries, regions by manipulating communication. We already know of the Cuba text message uprising and I'm sure its attempted in many other places. It creates civil war and misery for a lot of people for the benefit of a very few by manipulating unstable systems into chaotic situations.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (4, Interesting)

AHuxley (892839) | about 3 months ago | (#47277739)

Re "If I had data like this, I could probably make a killing in the stock market or provide lots of insider information for hedge funds."
Thats the reality Australia, Canada, UK, NZ, Germany, France, other EU NSA helper nations face internally long term.
Generations of generals, top technical experts and their groomed staff are giving all their nations secure data away to the USA in real time.
How can a bright, local, entrepreneur with job creating, huge profit exports ever hope to compete against the USA? A nations best and brightest telcos are giving their own banking sectors time and trade/time sensitive data to the USA.
A nations telcos are giving their own emerging scientific data to the USA.
A nations telcos are networking their own gov data to the USA when they only ever upgrade to the next generation of junk encryption.
Re "It creates civil war and misery for a lot of people for the benefit of a very few by manipulating unstable systems into chaotic situations."
You can see that every year - the protected and well supported movement of CIA backed 'freedom fighters' help to reduce/split nations to smaller groups needing constant outside support.
How The US Is Arming Both Sides Of The Iraqi Conflict 06/12/2014
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/... [zerohedge.com]
The only way out is for talented local entrepreneurs to understand what signals intelligence is when they used a phone, fax, network or any other digital device.
The only way out is for talented diplomatic staff to understand what signals intelligence is when they use their bespoke embassy communications equipment.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47277557)

Documents look like it's primarily focused at foreign targets with cooperation from other countries. Shouldn't the NSA be doing foreign intelligence collection?

We just got through GCHQ saying it can spy on UK citizens because data transmitted between UK citizens and US entities like Facebook and Google [slashdot.org] is "foreign."

So you'll forgive me if I'm just a little bit skeptical that NSA isn't targeting US persons under the same rationale, namely that any packet that leaves the US to a foreign destination is a legitimate target, including any packets -- and NSA pinky-swears that it's not fucking with BGP in order to guarantee that the most efficient route from Manhatten to the Bronx occasionally involves a transatlantic cable and six hops in Europe -- that can be made to go through a foreign destination.

NSA might be doing the right thing here and discarding all communications of US persons, but that's no longer a safe, reasonable, or even sane assumption.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (1)

callahan2211 (1963904) | about 3 months ago | (#47277091)

Agreed. Also cut war spending by 50% and get rid of the Dept. of Education.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47277621)

As if that will do anything.

You think the higher-ups won't go rogue with this power and knowledge and just extort people of money or ruin them?

It cannot be stopped. It is an immovable object now.

Re:De-fund the NSA Completely (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47278941)

De-funding is not possible. Like the CIA... er mafia, they will just increase their receivables through contraband, extortion, and blackmail. But you kids, don't, like, rock the boat, or anything, just keep on voting for democrat/republicans, and all this will clear right up. Trust me.

secret partner (1)

turkeydance (1266624) | about 3 months ago | (#47276799)

meet man-in-the-middle

Re:secret partner (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47277587)

More like the awkward partner once the nature of the situation is revealed. Woman-in-the-middle on the other hand is fine to most if little router-on-router action is acceptable to all parties.

So like... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47276857)

...Spain, Sweden, Japan, Brazil, all of NATO, etc, etc. Not to mention partnerships on key areas with the likes of Russia and China.

Re:So like... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47277811)

A cartoon [nzherald.co.nz] on the current New Zealand Prime Minister in the US.

Skype? Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47276879)

I thought that Skype used some proprietary protocol/encryption to prevent unauthorized clients that would also prevent the NSA from listening in. Does somebody know something I don't?

dom

Re:Skype? Really? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47276917)

Skype is indeed encrypted, but I think it'd be a fairly safe bet that the NSA has the keys/access to a backdoor/some other method by which they can easily decrypt such calls. Especially in the years since Skype was acquired by Microsoft.

Re:Skype? Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47276941)

Other than its a US company that is highly dependent on government purchasing their products and defending their interests???

I'm sure the high speed fiber splices at Microsoft's numerous data centers also use proprietary Microsoft equipment, just like that heavily monitored system where emails can go missing or bounce for unknown reasons...ah, I think they call it Outlook.

Re:Skype? Really? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47276969)

Proprietary "encryption" means the private entity (Skype) can decrypt it. As you might know, Skype is owned by Microsoft, which is a US corporation. Consequently, the NSA has access to all Skype communications.

Re:Skype? Really? (5, Informative)

TubeSteak (669689) | about 3 months ago | (#47277797)

Skype's problem isn't proprietary encryption.
If you recall, for a very long time, Skype used random clients as nodes to connect calls..
Microsoft bought Skype and, in 2012, released an update that ended this practice and forced everyone to go through MS controlled nodes.
Microsoft claimed this was for performance reasons, but everyone with two braincells immediately assumed it was for spying.

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/07/24/0039205/microsoft-wont-say-if-skype-is-secure-or-not-time-to-change [slashdot.org]
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/07/26/2243206/microsoft-makes-skype-easier-to-monitor [slashdot.org]

Skype's original design was intentionally restructured to give Microsoft the ability to intercept all communiciations.

Re:Skype? Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47279229)

Actually, while that had the pleasant (for MS cooperating with the government) side-effect of making wiretapping easier, the actual reason was that Skype's peer-to-peer model was battery-usage-heavy, so it made Skype impracticable for use on smartphones (e.g. I leave my phone which still has the old client logged out of Skype because it doubles the idle battery usage). Of course, since the encryption was never user-visible, there was never a way to ensure there wasn't a man-in-the-middle. The restructuring just makes it trivial for MS to act as the man-in-the-middle.

Interesting Skype history: (2)

Burz (138833) | about 3 months ago | (#47279891)

Dec. 22, 2010: The great Skype blackout
Feb. 6, 2011: Skype goes online with NSA PRISM spying (6 weeks after blackout)
October 2011: Microsoft completes Skype acquisition
July 2012: NSA boasts [theguardian.com] that "a new capability had tripled the amount of Skype video calls being collected through Prism"

Re:Skype? Really? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47276981)

I thought that Skype used some proprietary protocol/encryption to prevent unauthorized clients that would also prevent the NSA from listening in. Does somebody know something I don't?

dom

Yeah it's been bought by Microsoft.
I think it's pretty clear at this point that you cannot trust in any way shape or form any US firm.

Re:Skype? Really? (2)

AHuxley (892839) | about 3 months ago | (#47277787)

Some closed source US based encryption seems to have 'collaborated closely with US intelligence services to allow users' communications to be intercepted, including helping the National Security Agency to circumvent the company's own encryption"
http://www.theguardian.com/wor... [theguardian.com] (12 July 2013)

Thanks to M0slms, this is the only way (0)

KrazyDave (2559307) | about 3 months ago | (#47276951)

A lot of hipsters and other wannabe "'Murica - haters" are loose and easy with their criticism like so much diarrhea, but the sad fact is that if NSA monitoring saves us from just one more tragedy, then it's worth it.

Re:Thanks to M0slms, this is the only way (2)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47278049)

So if you have a government more like the East German government, and a secret police service more like the Stasi, as long as it prevents one tragedy, you're fine with it?

You're fine with allowing the Land of the Free to become the Land of the Surveillance Police State?

You certainly don't deserve the moniker "Home of the Brave," you fucking coward.

news flash... (0, Flamebait)

Connie_Lingus (317691) | about 3 months ago | (#47276965)

the powerful of the world use their confiscated wealth (via taxes) to harness technology to spy on everyone else. really how surprising.

move along, there is nothing to see here...

Re:news flash... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47278237)

their confiscated wealth (via taxes)

Not this bullshit again.

Taxes pay for the society you live in. Everything. If you paid no taxes, everything would be user pays - more than that, everything would be billed at a rate you negotiated, and when negotiating for the roads the business has the advantage. They lose virtually nothing if you choose not to pay. You couldn't even walk on the sidewalk they owned if you decided not to pay.

So suck it up, pay your taxes, and enjoy the sidewalk and roads.

Don't forget to hold your elected officials accountable. In fact, why don't you start right now instead of moaning your right wing fantasy about taxes being theft.

I've finally had enough. (5, Funny)

un1nsp1red (2503532) | about 3 months ago | (#47276997)

it says it can intercept the content of phone calls, faxes...

I've sat on the sidelines since the whole NSA "revelations" began unfolding, but I've finally had enough. I'll not stand by and let the government continue intercepting my faxes.

Re:I've finally had enough. (2)

rtb61 (674572) | about 3 months ago | (#47278631)

Now might be the time to invest in plain old fashioned postal services. Still need a warrant, can trace opening or closing and, secrets can be personally delivered. What you can be will happen is cloud services are going to take a real hammering, everything is going to start shifting back in house and more parallel networking is going. One network and computer system for internet and unsecure communications and another internal network and computer system for secured data. Data only shifts from one to the other via the computer security office, after is has been checked and audited. If you are going to stick you data on the cloud, you might as well stick a big screen display on your front wall and stream all you most valuable information straight to the public. Industrial and commercial espionage is with out doubt the number goal of this exercise, hundreds of billions of dollars are up for grabs with this kind of global inside information, insider trading, trade secrets, patent research and, of course extortion upon a global scale, personal, industrial leaders and politicians.

Re:I've finally had enough. (1)

AmiMoJo (196126) | about 3 months ago | (#47280491)

They photograph everything that goes through the post. They claim that they only capture what is on the outside of the envelope, but it wouldn't be hard to use some kind of x-ray scanner to see what is written inside. That's exactly the kind of bullshit legal loophole they like.

Re:I've finally had enough. (1)

Rich0 (548339) | about 3 months ago | (#47288591)

Or they just never use the contents of your letter in court, thus keeping it away from judicial review.

Read everybody's mail and figure out who you want to go after. Then find some other pretense to get a warrant and search their house. Maybe your weeds are a little too tall so the friendly neighborhood cop goes to leave a note on your door and could have sworn they smelled smoke, so exigent circumstances and all that... :)

Jews... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47276999)

Who are the NSA? Who do they work for? Certainly not the people. They are part of a giant criminal cabal, run by JEWS (quelle surprise), who have infested and taken over every facet of our society. The banks, the media, academia, and the government. With their Holohoax lie they keep their 'goyim' (cattle) under control, aided and abetted by the 'useful idiots' who believe everything they see on TV, and ONLY what they see on TV.
The NSA is the Jews' spy network, so they can make sure their 'cattle' aren't telling each other that they are enslaved, and who by.

Germany in the list (2)

gmuslera (3436) | about 3 months ago | (#47277035)

... somewhat Merkel deserved all the snooping that the NSA did on her. Putting trust in governments that deceive even their own people is a dumb idea.

Re:Germany in the list (2)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about 3 months ago | (#47277485)

... somewhat Merkel deserved all the snooping that the NSA did on her. Putting trust in governments that deceive even their own people is a dumb idea.

You're assuming Merkel had any idea what her own security services were up to.

Re:Germany in the list (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about 3 months ago | (#47277935)

What is your average democratically elected political leader supposed to think/do when their nations top crypto experts, security services, generals invite them to use a secure phone?
Then to read in the worlds press that that their gov tested device is useless?
Why would generations/groups of trusted, top, expert German staff be signing off on junk encryption projects 100% open to another nation?
Its Germany their top gov staff should not be that out of their comport zone with advanced telco equipment?
Its Germany their top gov staff should should have the notion to test and re test any electronic device given their ~100 year history with telco networks, failed crypto, East and West teloc taps.
Reality for Germany is its top experts went along with a junk encryption project... just this one time... the first time due a privitization directive and budget cuts? Out sourcing?
The German govs one top telco crypto expert left for the private sector around that time the gov testing unit was understaffed?

Tap my network, I dare ya. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47277095)

I would _love_ to see the NSA install a tap on a fiber associated with the network I work with. They would get charged with espionage and terrorism in a pretty clear-cut case. The networks I work with are not your usual Internet-user traffic. They're something which needs to be much more secure (think the ability to break critical non-telco infrastructure).

Oh, and the company I work for is bigger and more powerful than most governments (and no, it's not Google nor any other internet/computing services company, but it is big enough to own a Class A).

Cool story bro (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47277211)

"Terrorism" is not a charge and espionage only applies to the lifting of government secrets by individuals.

Re: Tap my network, I dare ya. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47277295)

Bigger and more powerful than most? Maybe. Bigger and more powerful than the one you'd be up against? No.

Re:Tap my network, I dare ya. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47278993)

They already have, if you have a class A range. Why you'd be putting even non-user traffic via your class A if you're that critical is strange (unless you just use it for your public website). If you think someone running their own fibre across the atlantic is immune, co-location is likely performed and taps made. There are suspicions that the AWS and Google's of the world have their private networks tapped, even if they're not using normal TCP/IP protocols. Which is why they have enabled inter-region and inter-datacentre encryption. Likely also to have beefed encryption at local datacentres as well.

Document also doesn't mention, if you're in a number of these countries, intercept requirements mean it's mandatory for span ports at telco level. For some of the others, where no co-operation is obtained, there are rumours that brief outages may mean you are compromised with fibre splitters, which are fairly transparent now. There were theories about outages in some parts of the world being submarine splices, but as more than 5 years ago not really in minds of people. Fibres generally last a while, and with upgrades to receivers then they should remain in step with the link speed they're monitoring. 60Gbps is noted for 2010 upgrade. So they've got some sweet network equipment by now I expect, and the intelligence about how to plug it in with minimal detection (assisted or not).

Encryption is only recourse, and that is theorised to be weakened. But the soft spot has obviously been those cables behind the corporate firewalls, and leased circuits. So encrypt your WAN circuits, maybe MPLS isn't trustworthy...

And to quote another - ""Terrorism" is not a charge and espionage only applies to the lifting of government secrets by individuals." - too true for most legislatives around the world. Doesn't matter who your company is, at some point it is likely to report to a government.

The alleged so-call alliance (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47277127)

What is the 5 partner alliance now referred to as the "**so-called** Five Eyes surveillance alliance". AU-CN-NZ-US-UK have been partners for so long even their opponents accept the alliance exists.

Puke, puke, puke over this communist agency (0)

Greg666NYC (3665779) | about 3 months ago | (#47277481)

Russians KGB was golden when comparing what this regime agency is doing.
North Korea already gave up. Kim Jong Un said "we no longer declare ourself as totalitarian regime, there are countries that more totalitarian, more communist, more regime"

Everyone who talks on the phone (1)

future assassin (639396) | about 3 months ago | (#47277701)

should start the call with Dirka Dirka Muhhamed Jihad New York. That should keep the Team NSA busy for a while

Why, New Zealand, WHY? (4, Interesting)

Rigel47 (2991727) | about 3 months ago | (#47278161)

I've been to NZ.. it's a wonderful place. Beautiful, raw, remarkable in all of its unique features. It's also pretty fucking empty with more sheep than people. There isn't a threat within 5,000 miles unless Australia turns Taliban. The worst thing they need to look out for is Chinese fishing poachers emptying their seas.

In all seriousness, please, kiwis, tell me why you have a //spy agency//?! Enjoy the wonderful land you live in and leave the stupids to the rest of the world.

Re:Why, New Zealand, WHY? (1)

ToasterMonkey (467067) | about 3 months ago | (#47278453)

I've been to NZ.. it's a wonderful place. Beautiful, raw, remarkable in all of its unique features. It's also pretty fucking empty with more sheep than people. There isn't a threat within 5,000 miles unless Australia turns Taliban. The worst thing they need to look out for is Chinese fishing poachers emptying their seas.

In all seriousness, please, kiwis, tell me why you have a //spy agency//?! Enjoy the wonderful land you live in and leave the stupids to the rest of the world.

... because they're on an island and have to trade with other countries? Non-military intelligence isn't around just to foil movie-like terrrrist plots, but nobody makes movies about the boring stuff.

Re:Why, New Zealand, WHY? (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about 3 months ago | (#47278533)

NZ was under consideration from 1945 on due to its great code work in ww2 (navy vs Japan). There is not real "UKUSA" one document or event, just a series of top level sigint meetings just after ww2.
Other to be EU/nations where offered deals for bases only getting unrelated mil hardware as a US/UK thank you. NZ got the full sharing deal, later computer upgrades and was always allowed to look up into Asia, Pacific. Amazing for its own gov/trade/domestic spying needs.
NZ got tech it could never afford, build, design, buy or even begin to prototype for decades for almost 'free'.
Australia was at least a bit more smart and listened to the wise words of its ww2 generals - big empires always abandon small nations (Australian early ww2 experiences)
Australia expanded its human spy networks, own signals listening and funded its mil/science outside US/UK shared methods. NZ kept its human spy side funded but seemed to use UK/UK shared sites in NZ more.
Reality finally set in over French action in NZ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] . NZ asked for UK, US, Australian help and got a political surprise - no real help in the EU with French phone networks and political leaders. NZ was on its own just as the wise Australian end of ww2 generals had hinted decades ago - shared material can just stop.
The threat is China trading with Asia on its own optical networks in its own way. For that US shared sites in NZ are vital.

Re:Why, New Zealand, WHY? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47281365)

I'd like to know what you just said, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't written in English.

Elementary, Mr. Watson. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47281097)

This is nothing NZ specific.

Intelligence is all about mutual exchange, if you don't give any you soon don't receive any. To NZ and all others involved, they need to contribute valuable data/information or risk being left out without relevant information their own limited resources aren't enough to get. It's simple as that.

From Singapore ....... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47278901)

Being from Singapore, and currently still here, am not surprised that Singapore is in the list.

Actually many people have suspected that Singapore is working very closely with the US in many aspects.

Can't really blame them all that much, considering their closest (surrounded by) neighbours are Islamic countries which have been known to have extremists present at times. Especially Indonesia.

Papers please comrade ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47280867)

Congratulations, America.

You have become everything you have historically stood against.

Now instead of being the (alleged) champions of truth, freedom, and democracy, you are basically turning the world into a police state in order to give yourself the illusion of security.

You cower in the dark, and decide it is better to give up your rights and your privacy than to hold to your principles.

And you've decided that everybody else in the world has to give up their freedom and privacy to this end.

Fuck you, America. You've become whiny cowards, who believe your right to cower in fear trumps the hard-won rights of the rest of us.

Welcome to the new America. Fascists, cowards, and oligarchs, jumping at shadows, and pretending to be the most important people in the world.

I weep for what America once was. America has declared themselves the enemy of freedom, while convincing themselves they're still its champion.

Land of the free home of the brave has become a fucking joke. Because you're anything but.

You have become your own worst nightmare. And you've also started to become the worst nightmare of the rest of the world.

Assholes.

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