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Court Allowed NSA To Spy On All But 4 Countries

timothy posted about 5 months ago | from the under-color-of-official-right dept.

Communications 242

mrspoonsi (2955715) writes A court permitted the NSA to collect information about governments in 193 countries and foreign institutions like the World Bank, according to a secret document the Washington Post published Monday. The certification issued by a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court in 2010 shows the NSA has the authority to "intercept through U.S. companies not just the communications of its overseas targets, but any communications about its targets as well," according to the Post's report. Only four countries in the world — Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand — were exempt from the agreement, due to existing no-spying agreements that the Post highlights in this document about the group of countries, known as "Five Eyes" with the U.S.

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Uh... Yeah? (5, Insightful)

CajunArson (465943) | about 5 months ago | (#47359019)

Sorry, but I'm not going to get my panties in a bind that the NSA is spying on other countries' governments considering:
      1. That's the NSA's freakin' job.
      2. Anybody who thinks that the only country in the world that spies is the U.S. is either an idiot or a liar.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359105)

It's part of the game to shout out when they are taken with their hands in the cookie jar. Just because its their job doesn't mean its okay.

Its expected of them to spy, but the method and the way data is obtained is the issue for a lot of people. And the data taken is used in ways it was not intended on citizen from all over the world.

Can only hope you are one of the first when they come and take people away.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Shoten (260439) | about 5 months ago | (#47359207)

It's part of the game to shout out when they are taken with their hands in the cookie jar. Just because its their job doesn't mean its okay.

Its expected of them to spy, but the method and the way data is obtained is the issue for a lot of people. And the data taken is used in ways it was not intended on citizen from all over the world.

Can only hope you are one of the first when they come and take people away.

"Just because it's their job doesn't mean it's okay."

Um...WHAT?

"And the data taken is used in ways it as not intended on citizen from all over the world."

Citation? I don't know of any reference to this, even in abstract. Can you please define the intended uses of COMINT and SIGINT, and the ways that are forbidden in the context of espionage please?

"Can only hope you are one of the first when they come and take people away."

You don't sound any better than the demonized version of the NSA you speak of.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (5, Funny)

jeIlomizer (3670951) | about 5 months ago | (#47359273)

Um...WHAT?

Yeah, I know. That sentence blew my mind! How can something you do for your job not be okay!? It's impossible!

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359691)

I'm a patent lawyer. My job is it to patent ridiculous stuff, and afterwards sue people doing the same thing. It's my job, but certainly most people would agree it not being OK.

Or maybe I'm a designer, creating ads. Ads that are lying about the product being advertised. It's fun, you learn a lot about how to deceive people. It's my job, but does that make it OK?

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

bluewhale (764435) | about 5 months ago | (#47359777)

Good thing, the government is not paying you to do this..

Re:Uh... Yeah? (4, Insightful)

thaylin (555395) | about 5 months ago | (#47359287)

It is Russia's spy agency's job to spy on us, that does not make it ok for them to do, as I am sure you would not be happy about it spying on you if you found out it actually did.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (2, Interesting)

snarfies (115214) | about 5 months ago | (#47359669)

A government spying on another government = okay

A government spying on another country's people = not okay

A government spying on its own people = OMGWTFBBQ

Re:Uh... Yeah? (2)

NatasRevol (731260) | about 5 months ago | (#47359735)

OMGWTFBBQ when the government is supposed to abide by the laws that do not allow unreasonable search.

But don't.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

robbyb20 (651479) | about 5 months ago | (#47359937)

If every persons reaction to being spied on was "Oh My God, What The Fuck, Bar-B-Que" I might be ok with it. I could go for some ribs...or grilled hotdogs OR a Hamburger. Fuck it, give me it all! Mmmmm, BBQ

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

LordLimecat (1103839) | about 5 months ago | (#47359765)

Arguing that its not "OK" for russia to spy on us is very strange.

What do you mean by "OK"-- that you dont approve? Thats both obvious, and irrelevant. That its morally wrong? I fail to see how intelligence gathering is amoral. That it violates some implicit agreement between the nations? Thats naieve-- everyone knows this stuff is going on.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

master_kaos (1027308) | about 5 months ago | (#47359705)

Um...WHAT?

So a hitman is fine to kill people since it is their job???

Re:Uh... Yeah? (4, Insightful)

ZouPrime (460611) | about 5 months ago | (#47359351)

> Just because its their job doesn't mean its okay.

Just because it's the job of the military to kill people doesn't mean it's okay.

It's not, but every single country in the world still has a military, and won't disband it just because "killing is wrong".

Countries have interests. They have a foreign policy aimed at defending these interest.

War is diplomacy by any other means, and countries will use wars as a tool of their foreign policy.

Spying is also diplomacy by other means, and countries will use spies as a tool of their foreign policy, which has the nice benefit of not killing people and not destroying everything, like wars do.

That it is "wrong" in some isolated, ideologically pure version of reality has little impact in practice. Countries continue to spy (since before they were such things as "countries"), and will continue for a long time.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

Ronin Developer (67677) | about 5 months ago | (#47359667)

You have much to learn about spying - thousands of lives were lost, on both sides, during the Cold-War. Just because it wasn't an overt military conflict does not mean that it was a peaceful endeavor.

Today, we know that spies from many nations live within our borders. Some are after national secrets, some are after industrial secrets. But, any way you cut it, it goes counter to our National interests even if it's a dirty business.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

ZouPrime (460611) | about 5 months ago | (#47359779)

Just because spying has caused death doesn't mean it has the same general impact as war (for Christ sake!)

I like how you claim that spying goes against countries "national interest" when every single country does it. I guess it means that every single country is wrong in your view? Or maybe you're just wrong and has no idea what you are talking about.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359671)

Soo... we should race towards the bottom.

What's next? Revive torture?

Re:Uh... Yeah? (2)

silentcoder (1241496) | about 5 months ago | (#47359809)

Didn't you DO that already ?
Or have you forgotten Abu Ghraib already...

Re:Uh... Yeah? (2)

kilfarsnar (561956) | about 5 months ago | (#47359719)

...every single country in the world still has a military, and won't disband it just because "killing is wrong".

Countries have interests. They have a foreign policy aimed at defending these interest.

I hope we can all keep this in mind the next time our leaders tell us we are going to war to free an oppressed people or to stop some evil dictator form doing stuff evil dictators do. Foreign policy isn't about that. Ever.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

ZouPrime (460611) | about 5 months ago | (#47359839)

The trust (or legitimate lack of trust) that people have toward their country has little to do with how countries act among each others.

If you don't trust your country foreign policy (and you are right in saying that it isn't always very legitimate), then act on changing that. Hoping your country to sabotage itself won't work.

The US (and every single other countries) won't abandon the tools at its disposition to enforce its foreign policy just because you feel they should. Countries - especially powerful ones - don't sabotage themselves for no reason.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

king neckbeard (1801738) | about 5 months ago | (#47359739)

And it's not really in our interest to do as much spying as we do or engage in as many wars as we do. If we want to act in the interest of the US public, we would destroy the NSA and not leave a single brick standing.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

ZouPrime (460611) | about 5 months ago | (#47359951)

Of course! The US should destroy its electronic espionage capabilities, right as the world enters the information golden age! Makes perfect sense. Why think long term when you can just react to the last news-fueled scandal!

Every industrialized country is racing to adopt strong electronic espionage (and defense capabilities), it's been growing fast for the last decade, as the importance and impact of telecommunication technology has been growing. It is THE hot field right now. Clearly, the most rational move for the US right now is to simply abandon it altogether.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (2)

Bill, Shooter of Bul (629286) | about 5 months ago | (#47359959)

That's absolutely right. In a very real way, our collective spy networks both US/Nato and Soviet/Warsaw allowed us to see what the other was doing and have some confidence about their immediate intentions. Spying kept the cold war from being a hot war.

In a perfect world would spying exist? No.
Should spying continue to exist in this un-perfect world? Absolutely.
Should there be restrictions to spying? Absolutely.

Like much in this world, the right answer is not an absolute answer. The world lives in complicated shades of grey.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359107)

Sorry, but I'm not going to get my panties in a bind that the NSA is spying on other countries' governments

Except that the relevant rules are worded so broadly that they don't just permit the NSA to spy on foreign governments:

“If ‘about the target’ collection were limited to genuine national security threats, there would be very little privacy impact,” Wyden told the Post. “In fact, this collection is much broader than that, and it is scooping up huge amounts of Americans’ wholly domestic communications.”

Besides, what do you think of the fact that this is done "through U.S. companies"? Is it OK for the US government to pressurize private US companies, probably through the kind of National Security Letter "You're doing our dirty work and you're not allowed to tell a soul or else" type tactic, into becoming a conduit for US government foreign policy?

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 5 months ago | (#47359123)

You don't suspect that the NSA may have taken advantage of the...creative flexibility... offered by the authorization to collect "not just the communications of its overseas targets, but any communications about its targets as well"?

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359131)

or what is worse is the idiots like yourself who do not know the difference between spying and mass warrant-less surveillance.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359363)

Don't waste your time on them my fellow anonymous hero. They're the ""heroes"" - the ones with their asses hanging naked in the wind, awaiting a raping...

Re:Uh... Yeah? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359139)

1. That's the NSA's freakin' job.

I'm just doing my job! That makes it okay!

Not everyone believes that we should be spying on allies and non-hostile countries.

2. Anybody who thinks that the only country in the world that spies is the U.S. is either an idiot or a liar.

Anyone who thinks that "Everybody else is doing it!" is a valid justification is an idiot or a liar. By the way, that's very likely a straw man, as I've seen no one actually claim no other country is doing it. The thing is... get ready for it... no one cares! It's irrelevant!

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359503)

I'm just doing my job! That makes it okay!

Nuremberg called, they want their defense back.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359157)

Sure most countries spy... But not anywhere near the level NSA does it at... I have never heard of other countries that put bugs in UN offices of other countries etc...

Known incidents of countries spying on the UN:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S... [wikipedia.org]

Also, using diplomats for regular spying is just evil...

Re:Uh... Yeah? (4, Insightful)

YrWrstNtmr (564987) | about 5 months ago | (#47359313)

I have never heard of other countries that put bugs in UN offices of other countries etc

HAHAHA.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

rastos1 (601318) | about 5 months ago | (#47359707)

Laugh all you want. But can you provide a proof?

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359495)

I have never heard of other countries that put bugs in UN offices of other countries etc...

How is it that you're able to type, fresh out of the womb?

Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359161)

I suppose you're from the US, Canada, Britain, Australia, or New Zealand so you don't care. I do care, not being from one of those "five eyes" [wikipedia.org] ..

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359219)

I suppose you're from the US, Canada, Britain, Australia, or New Zealand so you don't care. I do care, not being from one of those "five eyes" [wikipedia.org] ..

Welcome to Earth. Unlike your planet, we have a blue sky.

Humans live here.

We're not very nice to each other. Well, compared to how everything else on this planet treats each other, we do OK. But still, we're not very nice.

Better get used to it.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359179)

Is it also the NSA's job to destroy the American tech industry? Because that's how you destroy the American tech industry.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359425)

Is it also the NSA's job to destroy the American tech industry? Because that's how you destroy the American tech industry.

It all depends on how they do it. They can sit in an embassy, pointing an hypersensitive antenna at "electronic targets", they can dig up cables in foregin countries at night, they can plant their own bugs. No ill effect on american tech industry from this. Quite the opposite, the NSA will need a "tech industry" to purchase bugs and other listening equipment from. If foreigners discover such a bug, they will either have counterintelligence feed it bogus data, or expose it and deliver some sort of official protest. Still no bad effect on american tech industry, unless the "official protest" takes the form of a boycott.

But put just one backdoor into american equipment during export, and your reputation is ruined for a long time. Those that care about such things, will take the covers off and use disassemblers these days. Or simply order from other countries. Sure, the chinese can put backdoors into huawei products - in theory. But are they doing it at the moment? The paranoid can check no matter who the vendor is. The rest will either go by reputation, as in "who has not yet been caught delivering bugged products", or ask questions like "which producing country is least likely to spy on us.

Tip: stay away from countries big enough to have aircraft carriers. The rest can't project power all over the world, and will neither have the budgets for - or the interest in - a large-scale spying operation.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359217)

Full disclosure: I am not a US citizen and live in the UK.

I think everybody understands that it's the NSA's job, like any intelligence agency's, to spy for certain purposes. Problem is what one accepts as "certain purposes." If the NSA does spying necessary to, let's say, avoid terrorist attacks, fight organised crime, ensure US military secrets, etc., hardly anybody would complain I guess. But the NSA is spying indiscriminately on virtually anybody (unless you're covered by the Five-Eyes-No-Spy-Agreement)! So, high-tech corporations in let's say Japan or private citizens in let's say France might ask themselves, why is the NSA spying on them? I think you will find that very few countries in the world go to that extreme. And the few that might (let's say Russia or China) are generally not considered the "good guys".

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

king neckbeard (1801738) | about 5 months ago | (#47359223)

I don't know about you, but I would prefer more nuance to the role of government agencies than a moronic bumper sticker. Also, I want te NSA fired anyway. It is most likely the biggest threat to national security by quite a margin.

Re: Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359233)

Do you know anyone that puts bugs in their friends house? Spying on friends is decidedly fucked up and is a sure way of losing friends.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Thanshin (1188877) | about 5 months ago | (#47359239)

Sorry, but I'm not going to get my pants in a bind about what a court "allows" the NSA to do. Taking into account that the law hasn't applied to the NSA in the past and I I know of no reason why it would start now.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359259)

Sorry, but I'm not going to get my panties in a bind that the NSA is spying on other countries' governments considering:

      1. That's the NSA's freakin' job.

      2. Anybody who thinks that the only country in the world that spies is the U.S. is either an idiot or a liar.

...and a Hit-man's job is to kill people, you have a very weak point, if one at all...

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359295)

Oh, this has ultimately nothing to do about spying for spying's sake. Instead it is the evolutionary battle between justice systems: Common Law based systems versus (mostly) Roman and Napoleonic Law based systems. We as pawns, meme containers and distributors, do not realize our role in this battle of legal memes and meme systems. The unbounded rage of a judiciary guided court examination versus the unlimited menace of the adversary process, such a glorious duel!

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359301)

That's the NSA's freakin' job.

And it's the mafia's job to fit people with cement shoes.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (5, Interesting)

Sockatume (732728) | about 5 months ago | (#47359339)

Forcing Microsoft, Google, et al to spy for the NSA, using secret orders from a secret court, seems rather more problematic.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

LordLimecat (1103839) | about 5 months ago | (#47359783)

Thats true, and its not what this is about. A US court cant force a foreign company to do jack.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (5, Insightful)

erikkemperman (252014) | about 5 months ago | (#47359371)

Your panties aside, the whole problem here is that NSA is using "national security" as reason for a whole bunch of other things. Like economic, diplomatic and industrial espionage. Which is definitely not the NSA's job, no matter how liberally we interpret their mandate. Expand the acronym, there's a bit of a hint in there.

Explain to me why spying on, say, Angela Merkel or the entire Copenhagen or G20 summits is related to US national security and maybe I'll see your point.

You are probably correct that other countries do similar things (China and Russia come to mind) but you seem to be clueless to the difference in scale.

Finally, your sig: you disbelieve AGW arguments because you think Al Gore is a hypocrite? You're right about that last bit, but the conclusion, to put it mildly, does not follow.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359451)

Finally, your sig: you disbelieve AGW arguments because you think Al Gore is a hypocrite? You're right about that last bit, but the conclusion, to put it mildly, does not follow.

there's apparently an entire group of people who disbelieve in AGW because, in their minds, anybody who claims to want to stop it or even slow it down is only advocating "making Al Gore richer". i've heard the whole argument, and its basically "carbon credits are a scam and won't solve anything!" well no shit, thats why we aren't advocating for carbon credits or any stupid shit like that, we're advocating for stopping or at least slowing down global warming.

sadly they're just as unmovable by fact as creationists, flat-earthers, and geocentrists.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (2)

kilfarsnar (561956) | about 5 months ago | (#47359889)

Your panties aside, the whole problem here is that NSA is using "national security" as reason for a whole bunch of other things.

Unfortunately, it's been that way since the State Secrets doctrine was created [wikipedia.org] .

Re:Uh... Yeah? (3, Insightful)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about 5 months ago | (#47359417)

Sorry, but I'm not going to get my panties in a bind that the NSA is spying on other countries' governments considering:

      1. That's the NSA's freakin' job.

      2. Anybody who thinks that the only country in the world that spies is the U.S. is either an idiot or a liar.

I'm sick of this inane, uninformed argument.
1. It shouldn't be. That's why we're having this debate. It would be one thing if our government found evidence of something shifty going on... spied to confirm or refute that, and then took action. That's not what they are doing though. They're bugging every world leader, tapping the phones of damned near every citizen, reading our mail... this is Orwellian blanket surveillance which is a far cry from "Spying" This isn't "Spying" it's totalitarianism and it's wrong.

2. Comparing what the rest of the world does to what the NSA does is a joke. Yes, they spy on us, but they're not intercepting ALL of our phone calls. How many countries do you think have the US presidents phone tapped? I bet it's just one... take a guess who I think that is.

But lets assume for a second that the rest of the world had the NSA's capability and disregard for human dignity and privacy... I could go on and on about the moral implications and what not but the fact of the matter is this argument was resolved thousands of years ago with the simple line: "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" It's not a hard concept to grasp. WE are better than that. We don't need to do this. It's wrong, we all know it. It should stop immediately.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (2)

kilfarsnar (561956) | about 5 months ago | (#47359923)

I could go on and on about the moral implications and what not but the fact of the matter is this argument was resolved thousands of years ago with the simple line: "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" It's not a hard concept to grasp. WE are better than that. We don't need to do this. It's wrong, we all know it. It should stop immediately.

Wouldn't it be nice if our leaders considered what kind of world they're contributing to rather than just what they need to do to advance their "interests"?

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359423)

It's also their job not to get caught. They got caught, they have no excuse.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (4, Insightful)

spacepimp (664856) | about 5 months ago | (#47359487)

We are spying on civilians irrespective of who they are, what they think and how they act. Indiscriminate spying on the citizens of another nation is not the sort of thing the US should be engaged in. It will only piss them off and turn them to hate us along with losing the favor of the rest of the national leaders of the world. We have become complete and utter assholes of a nation and people like you saying it is fine have no idea how rude and arrogant you are to the people of the world who have done nothing wrong.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359541)

Funny thing, though, there's a country that's conspicuously absent from that list.

Remember, comrade, an American committing an act of war such as espionage against these United States is the Constitutional definition of treason. You wouldn't want to have two people observe you doing that.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359651)

I could buy that, if you at the very least had the decency to stop accusing the Chinese and Russians for acts of agression when they do exactly the same.

Re:Uh... Yeah? (2)

NatasRevol (731260) | about 5 months ago | (#47359723)

Why is the USA not on the 'can't spy on' list?

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

umghhh (965931) | about 5 months ago | (#47359751)

any policy can be judged on its costs and benefits. Direct costs and indirect costs of this policy are dire. Damage to US reputation and to Western citizens relationship with their states and their agencies that so creatively together with NSA misinterpreted laws and regulations is huge. There is also this little item of lost business due to NSA machinations.

The question is: was it worth it?

Re:Uh... Yeah? (1)

aepervius (535155) | about 5 months ago | (#47359977)

It is their frigging job yes.... But one has to wonder on the scope and breadth. Plus they got caught/whistleblowed. Both taken together make it for very difficult foreign relationship for the US for decade to come. But far more important for you, it might have an economical impact.

Agreement?? (1, Troll)

scsirob (246572) | about 5 months ago | (#47359027)

"Only four countries in the world — Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand — were exempt from the agreement"

So, did the 193 sovereign countries all agree to be spied upon? Or did one American tell another American that they had every right to do so.

Re:Agreement?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359077)

So, did the 193 sovereign countries all agree to be spied upon? Or did one American...

Governments of 194 countries (not just 193) had no treaty to stop spying on each other, yes.

Re:Agreement?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359079)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage

Re:Agreement?? (5, Funny)

Errol backfiring (1280012) | about 5 months ago | (#47359083)

Well, they did not send an X-Do-Not-Spy HTTP header, so they obviously agreed.

Re:Agreement?? (1)

Sockatume (732728) | about 5 months ago | (#47359319)

In all seriousness, Britain had an intelligence-sharing agreement with the US whereby GCHQ would hand over its own extensive snooping results, so the NSA didn't need to spy on the UK anyway.

Re:Agreement?? (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | about 5 months ago | (#47359197)

Ummm..... Just what do you think nations do? There is not a single nation that does not spy on some other nation.
Sweden, Germany, France, and the UK all have special SIGINT aircraft. The US, China, Russia, Israel, the EU, Pakistan, and India all have spysats.
What are you 12 or have you never read any history?

Re:Agreement?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359563)

For every spy technique, there are countermeasures.

wiretapping : encryption
old fashioned bugs : sweep the room, use faraday cage shielding
secret agents sneaking in : locked bunkers, armed guards, scary prisons
planes/satellites : build underground
NSA planting backdoors in american products : don't buy american products then! Consider who is least likely to pull this sort of trick to spy on you, germans, chinese, russians, japanese, ...

Every spy technique gets exposed from time to time. People mess up and get caught. Even something perfectly untraceable can fail, when someone defects or the other sides also succeed in spying. Usually, the consequence is that someone get expelled (or possibly executed). This backdoor stuff is new, but now we have governmental "don't buy" lists.

Re:Agreement?? (1)

louic (1841824) | about 5 months ago | (#47359215)

This agreement just means they have to spy even more secretly.

Re:Agreement?? (1)

prezkennedy.org (786501) | about 5 months ago | (#47359285)

Well... yeah, pretty much.

Re:Agreement?? (1)

dotancohen (1015143) | about 5 months ago | (#47359345)

"Only four countries in the world — Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand — were exempt from the agreement"

So, did the 193 sovereign countries all agree to be spied upon? Or did one American tell another American that they had every right to do so.

This guy can answer that question:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

Re:Agreement?? (1)

silas_moeckel (234313) | about 5 months ago | (#47359349)

It's a freaking clandestine service, yea it's their job to spy on other nations. How else do you insure that Iran is not making icbm's? ask them nicly?

Re:Agreement?? (1)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about 5 months ago | (#47359473)

It's a freaking clandestine service, yea it's their job to spy on other nations. How else do you insure that Iran is not making icbm's? ask them nicly?

But we're not talking about Iran are we? Iran's shown themselves to be a direct and obvious threat to the united states. I've no problem with tapping the phones of Irans leaders. The NSA is recording the private phone calls of the citizens of Canada... Mexico, England, Germany... That's not spying, that's a very insulting invasion of privacy... and whats worse, this horrible invasion of privacy that alienates our alies has absolutely no value to the NSA at all.

Re:Agreement?? (1)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about 5 months ago | (#47359797)

The article specifically says that there's four countries the NSA hasn't spied on, and you included two of them in your comment.

Re:Agreement?? (1)

king neckbeard (1801738) | about 5 months ago | (#47359875)

Yes, because the reason that we aren't spying on them is because they are co-conspirators in our spying (five eyes). Our combined spying apparatus are thus spying on the whole world.

Re:Agreement?? (1)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about 5 months ago | (#47359907)

If you want to know if someone who's spying on you is a Canadian, just ask him. If he replies "Yes I am, but I'm sorry about it, eh?", you'll know he's Canadian.

Axis of Evil (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359059)

Potato, potato. Axis of Evil, Five Eyes.

Re:Axis of Evil (2)

Revek (133289) | about 5 months ago | (#47359119)

That's us, the potato of evil.

It's a scandal! (1)

Ihlosi (895663) | about 5 months ago | (#47359101)

It's a scandal that there are countries the NSA isn't allowed to spy on. What if the terrorists are hiding there?

Re: It's a scandal! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359167)

But those are our terrorists and they're not hiding at all. In fact most of them want you to remember their name and vote for them every few years!

Re:It's a scandal! (1)

Thanshin (1188877) | about 5 months ago | (#47359213)

It's a scandal that there are countries the NSA isn't allowed to spy on. What if the terrorists are hiding there?

"What if"! That's exactly what a terrorist would say! Terrorists are OBVIOUSLY hiding there:

A - Terrorists are hiding everywhere.
B - Countries are a place.
Ergo, by A and B, terrorists are hiding there!

This is so obvious that the only explanation that makes any sense is that the terrorists that are hiding inside the Court have make a terrorist modification of the sentence to allow this terrorist plot to go on.

Re:It's a scandal! (1)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about 5 months ago | (#47359545)

It's a scandal that there are countries the NSA isn't allowed to spy on. What if the terrorists are hiding there?

"intercept through U.S. companies not just the communications of its overseas targets, but any communications about its targets as well,"

i.e. They're even spying on the countries we have anti-spy agreements with. Nothing to worry about.

Well...I know that's a lie... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359135)

They spy on Britain and Australia, I can confirm that.

Re: Well...I know that's a lie... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359711)

Well if you say so then obviously I must believe you...

What about Israel? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359143)

Let's not play dumb.

We know the NSA isn't going to spy on "our greatest ally" at all.

The only country that matters... (4, Funny)

B33rNinj4 (666756) | about 5 months ago | (#47359153)

The real question is, did they spy on Djibouti?

A spy agency is spying (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359177)

A spy agency is spying. Maybe someone should sell the story to woman's day or something.

A national spy agency spying on other countries (2)

danielobvt (230251) | about 5 months ago | (#47359191)

Color me suprised. Not. In all fairness I want all the other countries spy agencies to release a list of countries they spy in (in particular the national intelligence services of China, Russia, France, England, Germany and Israel). I bet you it would be a pretty similiar list.....

Re:A national spy agency spying on other countries (4, Insightful)

Sockatume (732728) | about 5 months ago | (#47359377)

I don't think any of those countries have secret courts that force local businesses to do the spying for them, though. Maybe Russia and China, and probably (to pick one not on your list) Iran.

Seems like a club the US should join, right?

When will the outrage start? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359249)

So you have one secret organization with no oversight telling another secret organization with no oversight that it's "OKay" to break the law (Constitution). I find the lack of public outrage disturbing.

Courts vs NSA (0)

Thanshin (1188877) | about 5 months ago | (#47359263)

In other news, a court disallows crime and corruption. The US becomes a crime free country.

The Special Relationship (0)

stevencbrown (238995) | about 5 months ago | (#47359435)

As a Briton, I'm just glad my country made the list. Finally the special relationship counts for something - God Bless America!

Re:The Special Relationship (1)

spacepimp (664856) | about 5 months ago | (#47359523)

It's all good chum.. Besides GCHQ gives us all the information we need aboutyou and your family. But I am certain you spy on US citizens and feed us the info as to not violate those pesky rights.

Re:The Special Relationship (1)

JustNiz (692889) | about 5 months ago | (#47359577)

It does seem that the biggest reason that there's a no spying agreement is because the UK already gives the US access to everything it wants.

Yea but fuck it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359463)

"Only four countries in the world — Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand — were exempt from the agreement"

Yeah.. and let's spy on them as well anyway, because fuck it.
We just say we don't.

The cost (3, Insightful)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about 5 months ago | (#47359515)

I submitted this as a story a while back but it never got picked up:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/93f6... [ft.com]

Germany dropped a US carrier (Verizon) over the NSA issue.
The worst part about this whole thing is the spying is worthless. The NSA is alienating our allies, driving away customers from US businesses all so the NSA can record the phone calls of little old ladies talking about bridge.

Re:The cost (4, Insightful)

Zocalo (252965) | about 5 months ago | (#47359633)

Worthless is right. It's supposedly to prevent terrorism (at least that's how the proponents of wholesale data capture usually justify it), which would typically be a small cell of individuals looking to strike a handful of small high value targets. Yet despite having access to every single phone call in Iraq plus, no doubt, a whole array of other sources of intelligence the NSA appears to have been caught completely unaware by a major military offensive involving thousands that has effectively overrun about a third of the major towns and cities in the country. Missing the odd needle in the haystack would perhaps be excusable, but they pretty much overlooked the entire hayfield on that one.

Even so, I'm betting they'll use that as an excuse to justify collecting more than just metadata, which is now demonstrably not up to the job, rather than scrapping the whole expensive business and working out what sources of methods might actually give tangible results and using those instead.

Re:The cost (2)

GungaDan (195739) | about 5 months ago | (#47359653)

Oh my god! The little old ladies are going to blow up a bridge!

Re:The cost (2)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about 5 months ago | (#47359827)

Out of mod points right now, so I'm giving you a virtual Score: +1, Funny.

But not the USA? (1)

Nyder (754090) | about 5 months ago | (#47359699)

So I noticed they didn't say the USA was one of the countries the NSA can't spy on, so I guess nothing is changing?

failz0r5... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359753)

Would mar BSD's common knowledge you have a play contaminated while and that the floor BSD's acclaimed BSDI is also dead, is EFNet, aNd you Visions going base for FreeBSD

50c agents (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47359825)

Is it only me or there is a lots of US gov shills around here lately? There are lost of people working for NSA and some such criminal gangs so that would not be difficult especially with current level of traffic on /. All those heroes would do it for free probably.

just get rid of it... (1)

Mr_Nitro (1174707) | about 5 months ago | (#47359955)

NSA is a fucking cancer...just get rid of it... the people should go to all extents possible to remove all espionage agencies, these entities are undermining the trust that the population and the foreign countries citizens have left in the USA. Fuck secret stuff.
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